Association Forum - cost vs value?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

cost vs value?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
1773 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/17/2007 : 21:11:49

So looking over the great input/advise/wisdom on this sight, I have to ask, if you were given a Catalina 25 that needed "everything" how much would you invest before you say to yourself "enough is enough"? I know some will say "nothing" and some will opt toward "whatever it takes" but, what is a reasonable budget for onetime costs vs annual "gotta-do's" -- just curious here!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 00:50:33

I wouldn't put in too much over the value of the boat. I'd say the boat, without trailer, well equipped, and in good condition is worth about $5000 to $6000. Late model wing keels slightly more. That is here in Southern CA.

With trailer in good condition about $10,000

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3440 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 07:25:28

It depends on so many factors. How much you have initially to afford buying and keeping a boat as well as the costs to repair what is needed to get it seaworthy or to make improvements deemed necessary. Factored into the affordability equation is how handy you are and howm uch of a hobby you want of the boat versus sport.

In my instance, I can afford a new boat but having had a new ODay 23 in my way earlier past and then the beating I took when it came time for me to sell it, this time around my priorities were that I want to go sailing and so a boat that was ready to sail and in good condition was of prime importance. I saved the cost of buying a new boat and was willing to make the annual investments which I sized up to be primarily a new motor soon after I bought it, followed by a number of projects (solar panel, rewiring w/elect panel, fans, bottom painting) the next year and a future year...probably new sails and lines. After that, possibly new stays/rigging. So for me, it was an initial cost of $9750 and about $3000 invested in the first 6 months. Over the next year, I estimate I have spent another ~ $1500. Sailing-wise...sine I bought the boat I have been on it an average 3 times or more a week and 2/3 of the times I went out sailing. I am not working out the math on how this all totals but I would say that during a full year (summer and winter) I must have gone out sailing about 100 times or so. Much of the cost was making improvements to the boat and not repairs - It has been something I enjoyed...well maybe not as much as sailing...but it is a hobby almost as much as a sport for me.

Right now, I am considering building a small sailboat (12-13') from either plans or from a kit. Maybe never do it but if I do, I will be considering this next year some time. Doing the research right now. I want a small sailboat to take on vacations, sail in lakes occasionally and...well just want to see if I can do it. So...the cost i this case is all in building from scratch...probably $2000 or so to do it plus any initial tools that I do not have like a multitude of clamps may add to the cost.

So...in the end, I think a lot of your question has to do with affordability and desire for sailing right away and how much hobby you want to factor in. Even with a new boat...one can add considerable cost to it.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 08:08:31

If golf is your sport, and you spend $500. on a set of golf clubs, and $10. for three good balls, and $40-50 for greens fees each time you play, and more to rent a cart, you don't expect to get those expenses back when you quit playing. It's the cost of entertainment. To a certain extent, that's also true of sailing.

That having been said, it's just like owning a car. When it gets so old that the cost of a new set of tires is more than the value of the car itself, the question you have to ask is whether you'll get enough use out of it to justify the expense. That requires that you think about how much longer you plan to use it, and a careful evaluation of it's present condition and value. It's OK to invest more in it than it's inherently worth, if you're going to use it long enough to amortize the investment. Don't worry. Be happy!

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 08:16:17

steve
i agree 100%

the costs of replacing halyards and other lines is the cost of intertainment.

the cost hull repairs or structural dammage is a differant thing.

there's always up keep and tidbits (green fees and cart)

if you like it go for it!!!!!

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry in southern illinois near carlyle lake.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 09:24:18

I have always had a philosophy about spending money, if what you end up with does not please you then you have wasted what you have spent. I am a school teacher and I need to be sure what I buy is what I want.
I have heard it said that a $10,000 boat is a $10,000 boat; if you pay 5 for it you will have to put 5 in it, if you pay 15 for it, it is still a $10,000 boat. While Larry's Mark series infuriates many owners of earlier Catalina 25s it makes a valid point; there are design changes over the life of the boats that make some more desirable than others; read that as "more valuable" than others. Anywhere but the coasts my 89 is a $10k to $12k boat depending on what else is on the market in the area, (being a lake sailor, I always speak presuming there is a roadworthy trailer under the boat which is about a $1500 bump over a boat without one). I don't think a pre fuel locker model can pull more than 5 or 6, the mid models go for 7-10.
Additions and mods simply make your boat the most desirable and a better value compared to the competition, they seldom add actual value. The single most important thing for resale is the condition of the boat, a turn key $10,000 boat sells for $10,000.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 09:34:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 So looking over the great input/advise/wisdom on this sight, I have to ask, if you were given a Catalina 25 that needed "everything" how much would you invest before you say to yourself "enough is enough"? I know some will say "nothing" and some will opt toward "whatever it takes" but, what is a reasonable budget for onetime costs vs annual "gotta-do's" -- just curious here!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I want to speak directly to this question:
$1000, running and standing rigging.
$1500 on a main and headsail.
$1200 on new interior cushions
$500 on upgrading/updating hardware

Possibles:
$1000 trailer rebuild
$2000 outboard
$500 on the bottom doing a barrier coat yourself.

All of this presumes a solid, neglected boat, which many Catalina 25s are. If the boat required any structural repairs and needed everything above I would turn the boat and find a solid one. If some of what is above did not need doing and a like amount of money would handle structural repairs then I would consider keeping it. A boat in poor repair as opposed to simply neglected makes everything dicey.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 10:23:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ..there are design changes over the life of the boats that make some more desirable than others; read that as "more valuable" than others....I don't think a pre fuel locker model can pull more than 5 or 6,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 12:06:47

Another measurement involves the other boats around you... At what point would the amount you're contemplating putting into a C-25 be better spent on a boat that you might covet more--such as a C-28, C-30, Cape Dory 28, O'Day 30, Alerion 28

, etc... At some point, you might be happier selling your little Catalina and reaching for something else. If the 25 is perfect for you and you plan on enjoying her for a long time and resale is a distant issue, then your household budget may be your only contraint. As said above, you're just paying for enjoyment.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 12:10:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 ..there are design changes over the life of the boats that make some more desirable than others; read that as "more valuable" than others....I don't think a pre fuel locker model can pull more than 5 or 6,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You realize, Frank, that what he meant was "Thanks a lot.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/18/2007 12:12:33

crcalhoon
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2007 : 12:59:58

Just as a thought: Early in my career with "toys", i.e. motorycles, old airplanes and old sailboats, a friend once told me that you can never justify the price of your toys. If you try to do so, you take away all the joy. Once, in one of those "oh Hell, I never sail it, just work on it, might as well sell it," periods, my wife told me "keep the boat. It's cheaper than psychotherapy." I made that comment to one of the guys on my pier in New Orleans and he said"I'm a psychotherapist and she's right." I justify the expense of my toys only insofar as "can I afford it withot cutting into the family finances." I have come out even on sailbaots, and I have lost money too, tho' never anything I couldn't afford. Either way, the joy of having done it has trimphed over what pain, mental or financial, there might have been. Lordy, what a rant.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

Members Avatar

Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2007 : 10:49:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 If golf is your sport, and you spend $500. on a set of golf clubs, and $10. for three good balls, and $40-50 for greens fees each time you play, and more to rent a cart, you don't expect to get those expenses back when you quit playing. It's the cost of entertainment. To a certain extent, that's also true of sailing.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For me the upgrades I've done on my boat has been the cost of my education and I've enjoyed every minute and every dime spent- except for bottom painting

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2007 : 07:36:25

I'm with Craig,
Outside of the extreme, the cost is irrelevant. I'm having a blast, learning all the time and of course avoiding the psychotherapist as well as the heart doctor.

Edited by - DaveR on 02/21/2007 07:28:01

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 03:21:41

I will try and add a couple of points to this issue, For one I bought our boat (Capri25) for 1500.00 at this price point the boat had a hole in the Hull, and the repair bill from a local dealer was right around 6500.00 to fix just the hole in the boat. I will try and go thru a mental cost of what I have done to the boat and the time that was spent on doing it.

It has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with "the love of sailing"

this is what I would say are the "bigger" buys
Boat - 1500.00
Cushions - 700.00
Trailer - 1500.00
Motor - 250.00
Hoist - 500.00

Paint - 120.00
Primer - 55.00
Sandpaper - 35.00
Glass cloth - 45.00
Glass mat - 25.00
Resin - 65.00
Gelcoat 45.00
4 Colors - 45.00
HVLP spray gun - 100.00
Paint suit - 15.00
regulator - 55.00
Bottom paint - 125.00
15'-0" t-track - 225.00
misc hardware - 30.00
new rub rail section - 25.00

Repairs took 12 (8) hr days

Launched boat and put it into slip.

New Sails - All of the sails I have are a laminate sail material and I spent 2 years looking for the "right used sails"
Used Main, Genoa, and Spinnaker - 1000.00
Used 130% Genoa 325.00
Used 100% Genoa 300.00

Upgrades
Battery Charger - 35.00
4 life jackets - 50.00
2 Automatic vest - 300.00
New Lines and Halyards 500.00
4 bumpers - 120.00
Lines to tie boat up with - 100.00
Horn, extinguisher, flares, med kit - 100.00
Sunbrella for covers - 55.00
Cooler - 35.00

Electronics
Power Panel - 40.00
wind, speed, depth - 750.00
Tacktic compass - 375.00
bulkhead compass - 125.00
Radio - 145.00
Speakers - 65.00
locks - 25.00

Hardware
Carbo Foil - 420.00
New Forstay - 65.00
Backstay hardware - 75.00
Mainsheet Hardware - 120.00
Genoa Cars - 255.00
Spinnaker mast car - 265.00
Tweekers - 85.00
Boom Vang - 75.00
Tiller extension 65.00

Misc Stuff
Plates - 10.00
Glasses - 10.00
throw pillows - 20.00
blanket - 30.00

I know there is more stuff I have for the boat, but this is a good base of what you will want or need to get into a "deal" of a boat. Was it worth it, sure it was. I have had a great time fixing up our boat, I have a love for it, I know every inch of the boat, and I can tell you what kind of nut or bolt goes where. I trust the boat, and this is one of the most important feelings to have. Every part of the boat has been gone thru, It has been looked at, repaired, or fixed. I myself can say that our 30 yr old boat, looks like new, and preforms that way for us. So my thoughts are I have a 10,000.00 boat, and that's just what it is, but it sure is allot cheaper than a new one at 35,000.00 to 45,000.00

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2007 : 11:40:26

You may want to read all about my voyage Milwaukee to the Bahamas aboard a bigger power boat. There are lots of pictures of Lake Michigan, Georgian Bay, Trent Severn Canal, Lake Ontario, Erie Canal, Hudson.

In a C25 and allowing for bad weather days I'd say the trip would take at least a month.

But it would be wonderful.

http://www.indiscipline.org/cruise2000/cruise.html

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2007 : 13:57:21

WOW -- thank you everyone for your input and insight. I have a 25/TR/FK that requires "TLC" the price was right. Structurally all is fine except their was work done at the bow/deck. I have had it looked at by two qualified people who said it was structurally fine but cosmetically awful. That being said, I am going through the typical replacement of sails, rigging, etc. Like every boat i have ever owned -- new and used -- it always costs more than anticipated and on the git go it is good to get a reality check as to what is reasonable vs what is passion. Again, thanks to everyone. I am sure I will have more specific questions on the many "to do" tasks!

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2007 : 14:42:32

It comes down to a simple "make versus buy" decision. If you get the boat for free, but you need to put $6,000 into it to make it equal to a different boat that costs $6,000 initially, then you value your time at zero. My time is worth a lot to me, so I'd buy the $6,000 boat. If the free boat needs sails, a mast, boom, and standing rigging, you'd be better off taking a pass.

Some of the advice on this tread has gone to a completely different question: is it worth spending $6,000 for a sailboat in the first place? That's when you ask yourself if you'd rather play golf. I hate golf, so my answer is "absolutely yes".

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2007 : 15:45:33

This thread is now back to where I started. If it costs more than it is worth to bring this boat up to snuff, don't do it. Buy a boat in better condition instead.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2007 : 15:58:26

That's kind of like those who spend $100K building/restoring a classic car then sell it at Barrett-Jackson for $50K.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2007 : 22:11:37

...except that any boat you buy is going to need something too--if not immediately then soon thereafter, and you probably don't know what or when that'll be. So the math is a little squishy...

If you really bring a boat "up to snuff", you probably won't get back everything you put into it. You're doing at least some of it for yourself--not for resale.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/28/2007 22:19:44

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2007 : 18:11:48

Again, thanks for all the input -- it confirmed what good common sense would indiate. In my case, the goal was to find a project for my 14 y/o son and I. I've owned an assortment of boats over the years -- old and new -- and he loves sailing and boats. He has only "worked" on new or near new boats. While I was not necesarrily looking fo a C-25, when this one fell into our laps it seemed to make sense. I expect to end up spending way too much relative to boat value -- but I do expect that both my son will learn alot and I will be reminded why, as I get older, new or near new looks so good! Regarding boats, while I really wanted a Pearson Vanguard, between the great people on this sight and the readily available replacement parts, I am very excited about this project.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2007 : 07:20:57

Peter, I hope you will post an ongoing report of progress as you bring the boat up to snuff. Keep the (digital) camera handy!

Paul.

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2007 : 08:36:17

Everyone needs to do a project boat, if only to learn never to do it again. The experience will give you a lot of knowledge you wouldn't gain otherwise and IMO knowledge has value in and of itself.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2007 : 12:35:48

To some extent every boat is a project boat. Even the boats I've had that I didn't consider to be project boats, probably would have been considered such by another or a better sailor.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2007 : 14:15:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by existentialsailor
 Everyone needs to do a project boat, if only to learn never to do it again. The experience will give you a lot of knowledge you wouldn't gain otherwise and IMO knowledge has value in and of itself.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Harvey's comment to me.....We'v bought our last project boat!!!!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2007 : 19:18:40

I didn't know your admiral's name was Harvey.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.