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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2007 : 20:03:31

Rather than do a ton of research, I thought I'd just ask the wise Lake Erie sailors out there which anchor should I buy for Kaija (the PO kept the original for use on his new boat). I'll be at Sandusky and likely only anchor in the island areas for the near future. Not likely to overnight on the hook this year. This summer is a "learn to sail" summer since I have less than 100 hours at a tiller, so I won't be travelling far. Maybe to Cleveland for the nationals (To watch!) I'm assuming the original equipment style Danforth with 10-15 feet of chain and 150' of line?

What about charts? What do I REALLY need and what will just confuse me more?

What about GPS? I think it's really overkill. I don't want too many instruments to worry about while I'm trying to better understand sail trim, etc. But, if it will really help a novice, then I'm more inclined to spend the bucks. The boat has a knotmeter and depth. No wind instrument other than a masthead windex.

Other than the CG Safety stuff, what else SHOULD I have?

I've read threads about "what would you not do without" and the like but they seemed to be a bit more esoteric. I'm looking for brass tacks kind of stuff.

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
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Response Posted - 01/29/2007 : 21:45:36

<center>[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Decorative-Upholstery-Designer-Brass-tacks-Nail-Heads_W0QQitemZ270084043847QQihZ017QQcategoryZ113356QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]you may find these useful[/url]</center>

Sorry, couldn't resist

Paul

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2007 : 22:27:31

Precisely what I was looking for!!!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 05:48:44

Hey John,

Welcome to the world of cruising.

Building on skills in my opinion is the way to go. I'd seek the opportunity to crew for an experienced cruiser a time or two. The captain can pass some things along that would take considerably longer to learn through the school of hard knocks. That school has its place but can also be costly.

Perhaps invite an experienced captain aboard your boat for a passage.

I'd start with a 13 lb Dandforth with 150-200 ft of 3/8 - 1/2" rode. As your boat gets more prepared for cruising and spending the night on the hook, it will need a second anchor and I like a 16 lb claw.

Fog or even heavy rain can render visibility near nill so if venturing out on a Great Lake, a means of finding ones way back to refuge is prudent. In my opinion at the price of a basic gps, there is no more safety to be had for the buck anywhere.

My personal opinion is to go with something very basic for the first unit. A basic unit when programmed with reliable safe waypoints is arguably as good as a chartplotting gps. Critics of the chartplotting gps say that the screen is too small on a hand held model for easy observation and becoming too preoccupied with the gps can be dangerous.

I've done a fair amount of cruising in demanding navigation areas on the Great Lakes and because of pre-planning, never felt I needed chartpotting.

Here is a story to illustrate. Cruising the Western end of the North Channel, I'd planned the evening anchorage at East Grant Island. It has a nice bay on the west side and even a a very protected little cove within the bay for a small boat capable of skinny water to get into. The bay however is flanked by rocky extensions on both sides reaching quite a way out.

Using the binocs... I peered into the bay to see if the cove was easy to get into but couldn't tell for sure and I'd never been there before. The twenty knot west winds and four foot seas were breaking on outcroppings flanking and reaching quite far out on both sides of the bay. To go into the bay to get a better look was risky because it violates the sailors rule to stay clear of lee shores. If the outboard quit... I wasn't sure with this wind and wave, I could claw out of the bay and around one of the bordering shoals. A missed tack would be disastrous. I chose to stay clear.

That decision meant choosing an alternate anchorage. It was getting late with an hour of daylight left. Two options existed, both were fifteen or so miles away so neither could be reached until after dark. We could motor back to Thessalon against wind and wave to the safe harbor where we'd bought supplies and checked into customs or... continue sailing downwind along our cruise path to Blind River.

The Blind River channel had several dog legs with markers at each turn but each was stored in the gps, though it was a strange anchorage, I'd never been there.

It was a pitch black night and with spotlight each marker was found without problem as well as a good place to anchor outside the breakwater (safe with the west wind).

The main point here is safe waypoints. If having to take lat and long off the edge of the chart and program into the gps, there would have been room for error either retrieving the data or entering it and the ease at which we found the channel markers would have been doubtful or even at risk. Having done that on a PC with a chartplotting program the previous winter was huge.

What is needed is a chart of the waters that are sailed and some waypoints marked on the chart that will provide safe routes. The waypoints should of course be preprogrammed into the gps as well as having hardcopy of the list.

btw, a few years after this cruise, I asked a cruising group about East Grant Island and got the following answer. "You were wise to stay clear of East Grant Island in a strong west wind. It offers an excellent anchorage in its west bay to anything other than west winds when then it can be treacherous as proven by loss of life there."

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/30/2007 06:21:19

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 09:23:23

Arlyn,

Although I agree with your advise regarding a basic gps for John, I disagree with your assessment of the utility of a chart plotter. I have found on a number of occasions, that a chart plotter is an invaluable navigation tool while coastal cruising during periods of limited visibility, especially fog. It allows you to see where you are in relation to hazards.

Whether John selects a basic unit or a chart plotter however, both should be used in conjuction with charts of the local area. I have several of Lake Superior plus a chart book, in additon to my chart plotter. A good compass should also be available to verify headings and as a backup in case of a power failure. Finally, I never cruise any great distance on Lake Superior without a logbook in which I post navigation notes (speed, heading, location, etc) every 30 minutes to an hour, again in case I need to revert to conventional navigation techniques.

John should also check his state and Coast Guard regulations regarding required equipment onboard a 25 foot boat. He may be missing some of the obvious things that could bite him in the event of a CG/DNR boarding inspection or (shudder) an actual emergency.

Edited by - aeckhart on 01/30/2007 09:27:02

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 09:48:34

Does a GPS work in thick fog? We don't have fog here (very often), so, I've never had the opportunity to use one in the thick stuff.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 10:03:23

The situational awareness and confidence provided to me, a new keelboat sailor, was worth much more than the price of the chart plotter. I understand the need to practice and be capable of navigating without it, and I do so. But, for example, knowing FOR SURE (barring equipment errors) that you are out of the shipping channel, or that you are past a shoal, is wonderful.

I went looking for a handheld chartplotter last year. I found that when I considered the cost of the chart data, I could get a plotter with a 9" screen cheaper than a handheld. I had to install it, but it has been a great thing to have. I also love having my current track and speed over the ground shown in huge letters during a race for example.

So, yes, you can make do with the most basic unit. But for a very small increase in price, you can have a really excellent aid to navigation. And then the need to enter lat/long into the unit is considerably reduced. I'd rather just move a cursor to the point I want to navigate to, and click, than I would use a chart or PC to find lat/long and enter it.

Lots of different viewpoints for you to consider. And Arlyn and (Al, I think it is) are much more experienced than me, so you should consider that when weighing the various comments.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 10:20:58

I would guess that the beauty of starting with a simple handheld is at least two fold, one you learn what a GPS is and what you wish it could do; that helps you move up to a chartplotter later. And it is there as a back up after you have moved up. Money is a reality for most of us.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 12:41:11

"I've read threads about "what would you not do without" and the like but they seemed to be a bit more esoteric. I'm looking for brass tacks kind of stuff."

Hmmm...What do you really need? I'd just say a boat.

During the season, I sail quite a bit and about 99% of the time, it is just open water daysailing with no particular destination, just out and back within 15-20 miles of the marina. I have a handheld GPS that lets me know where I'm at and how long its going to take to get home, but the reality is, it just sits in my microwave unused unless I get bored and want to play. The same pretty much goes for my compass. (I think I only removed the cover from it twice last year and that was just to admire it)

I do have paper charts that cover from Lake Huron to Lake Erie, but other than using them on a couple of trips, they stay stowed aboard just in case.

So as far as essentials go, I'd start with just what the CG requires then add stuff as you go depending on your own personal needs, comfort levels, and requirements.

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 13:40:16

The points about basic GPS and Chartplotters can be carried a step further. If you have a basic GPS and go to the trouble of programming several good waypoints such as from a good chart and then a few more by actually visiting the spots and learn to use it in non-dangerous practice, trying North Up and Track Up in actual practice, you shortly will be able to visualise your position and heading on a real chart and it works every bit as well as the Chartplotter. With a Chartplotter you actually see your position on a graphical representation of a real chart which seems easier. In my experience over several years of programming waypoints and teaching users on handheld and fixed basic GPS and then on Chartplotters, I believe those that learned to use the basic GPS first understood and used it with more confidence. In teaching people to use a basic handheld GPS I have suggested that they go to their driveway and mark a waypoint and name it Home, then go for a walk around a few corners, a few blocks away, then do a GOTO back to Home. Watch the various screens, the map page, the traveling highway and the compass page as you walk back home. Much will be learned and nothing is in danger. Bob

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 13:41:54

Al, my argument against a chartplotting gps is if I had one, I'd be tempted to think the preperation I do for a cruise isn't needed and if I bought into that...I'd be less safe. Here is why.

A chartplotter will likely lull the navigator into thinking he has the fundamental tool to keep him safe... and, I'm not suggesting they don't offer a fair measure of safety... but I don't believe the measure is as good as a system with more preparation.

My cruising has been for between 8-23 days and covers 350-500 miles. It is essential to have paper charts to back up the gps and even a back up gps. If the chartplotter fails... then what? Is the backup gps another chartplotter or a basic gps. A basic gps for a cruise requiring 150 waypoints and a dozen routes is a great tool but not a fun one to program by key entry... too much opportunity for error especially if taking the data off the chart edge. It is far better (safer and more accurate) to program it with a PC and charting software.

Charts are not very friendly to cruising. They are bulky and not handy to use in the cockpit. They don't manage 150 waypoints and a dozen routes unless that data is manually drawn onto the chart. Chart insets are very often required and this magnifies the problem of hunting the appropriate inset. Having that data on a chart that is difficult to use in the cockpit doesn't work well.

Much better is to print a chartbook on 8 1/2 x 11 for a cruise using the PC charting program. Then, all the waypoints and routes are listed on the charts and only those area needed are shown and at the needed scale.

Insets are sequenced in the book according to the cruise itinerary. The book is easy to keep and use in the cockpit and lives under a cushion. The pages are weatherproof in plastic shields and can be written on with a grease pencil.

If the base mounted gps fails, the backup hand gps has all of the same data. If using a chartplotting gps, one could easily load the data to a backup gps... but it would be meaningless without the chart book identifying where the point is.

Ok...so, I've convinced myself that I need to do my planning during the winter and print a cockpit chartbook... the question then is, with it, do I need a chartplotting gps... I think the answer is no, that I'm as safe as someone with a chartplotter, because I've got an equal amount of visual data because of the cross track error number displayed on the autopilot control head in very large letters.

I will however, fully agree that without the planning, a chartplotting gps affords better safety but continue to argue that planning + a standard gps provides more safety than a chartplotter without planning.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 13:50:15

Kevin, what 9" chartplotter did you get? How do you like it? I think that size is really needed for my old eyes! I'd like to think we can use the best of both worlds. Do your planning on paper charts, bring them, and know how to use them. Also use modern NAV aids such as chartplotters and radar. They are not mutually exclusive. Whatever you do, plan ahead.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 13:59:25

There is one other value of the cockpit chartbook that is huge and one I'd never known without observing it over many cruises with various crew.

On a several day or longer cruise, keeping the crew entertained and into the cruise is a very important task of the captain. There is a lot that could be said for how to do that but one of my observations is that the cockpit chartbook helps greatly.

All of my crew have taken to it very readily and get involved in the navigation, learning to use the gps, and grasping the terms quickly. I believe the tool that allows this is the cockpit chart book. They easily note a waypoint number and can identify where they are in relation to the one left and the one ahead. Usually, a group of pages with waypoints will be preceded by a page in less scale showing the whole route for a day... it is very easy for them to reference what leg we are on for that route. The crew really do get into it and I believe it to be a huge aid at keeping crew interest involved.

When it is their watch...it becomes much more than simply helming a course, they understand the leg, where it fits into the route and quickly grasp turning onto the next leg.

In many ways, the captain has done the hard thinking of the navigation back during the winter and can turn over the carrying out to the crew... there is a good by product of this... it frees the captain up to more appropriately watch over all aspects of the cruise rather than to get bogged down by navigation.

I often ask questions to ensure our safety, but leave a good bit to the crew... and they seem to like that.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/30/2007 14:06:15

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 07:54:22

Arlyn,

I agree 100% with everything you've said thus far. I have the chart book, charts, the chartplotter, a backup hand held GPS, bulkhead compass, hand bearing compass, navigators chart tools, binoculars with internal compass, and since I usually take only one long cuise per year, I spend a month or so planning for it. Evrything a prudent skipper should have to navigate long distances, day or night.

I had two points I wanted to make for John's benefit; 1st a chart plotter allows one to see the boats position in relation to geographical hazards during periods of limited visibility - a safety issue from personal exprience that a basic unit does not provide. Second, whether you use a standard GPS or GPS chartplotter the prudent skipper should be prepared with conventional navigation tools and cruise notes (preplanned and log book) to navigate with if the eletronic navigation tools can't be used - power failure, no batts, etc..

Two tips that I have found useful. I do all my winter cruise planning directly on my chartplotter using a 12v batt near my computer work station. In this way I am less likely to forget how to use crtical plotter funtions over our 7 month winter season and I can transfer my planning data directly to paper using my computer. All chartplotter information is verified using charts. I have also found that laminating my cruise planning information keeps them undamaged during nasty weather and I can make marginal notes for future reference using grease pencil.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 11:05:49

[url="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/L-K-RAYTHEON-RC630-CHARTPLOTTER_W0QQitemZ270085183823QQihZ017QQcategoryZ31281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]Ebay plotter[/url]

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 11:49:42

I have a Garmin GPSMAP 192, but they don't sell those any more. I believe the current model is a 492, or a 498 if you want a sounder as well.

I bought the 192 when the model was being cleared out to get ready for the 492, always a good time to buy electronics. It is an excellent unit, but there are good ones from other mfg as well. I am a pilot, and have a long history of being happy with Garmin in that relm, so I picked the Garmin unit.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 19:19:58

Thanks, guys. I'll give more thought to the GPS. The wallet will likely dictate the type but I, too, have those middle aged eyes.

As for cruising, I imagine that my "cruises" this season will likely not amount to much more than a circumnav of Kelleys Island, about 10-15 miles from the marina, tops. I really want to learn the boat.

I do like the idea of the chartbook. I have a couple of mates that may say "Dad, I'm bored!!" far too early in the day. So, compiling the book will teach me and occupy and 8 year old! Great idea!
the teenager actually has more, recent tiller hours (sea scout lasers)than the old man.

Thanks, again.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/31/2007 19:21:07

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 20:52:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...the teenager actually has more, recent tiller hours (sea scout lasers)than the old man.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
He'll be trying to roll-tack your C-250!

(Is that class-legal?)

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 21:26:19

he's a she and doesn't (fortunately for me) like to get that wet!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 09:07:35

John,

If you have a local West Marine or some other marine store, you might want to look at a copy of Lakeland Boating's Lake Erie Cruising Guide.

In it you'll find a wealth of information for just about every port on Lake Erie, including the islands and Canadian ports. Each port has in own section that includes lat/long's, waypoints, port information, phone numbers, radio freq's, chart insets, overhead pictures of each port, helpful hints, things to do onshore, and other bits of info.

Edited by - on

CaptRon400
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 09:01:13

The only bad thing about starting out with a chart plotter is that you may not bother to pick up the skills that you eventually WILL need when the device fails. Over the last 20 years, I've done 3 boat deliveries where the damn things stopped working - and, rest assured, it will only fail at night and when you need it the most. You've got to have the basic navigation and reckoning skills if you ever want to do some serious cruising.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 09:48:35

All I would add is that the old SATNAV system made us all too lazy to learn to use a sextant properly, and that the new stuff has a tendency to make us too lazy to keep our paper charts and logbooks up to date and that in essence, the darn things are electronic gizmos and they ARE going to break or burn up or get gremlins and it WILL happen in the middle of the night watch in the rain. Personally, with the possible exception of a cheap GPS, I would have nothing on board until I felt really comfortable with basic navigation. Think about it: it's 0230, blowing 20, raining, and the GPS fries itself or goes by the boards and you haven't updated your paper charts since dark at 1930. . .You don't know where you are within 25 miles. All you know is that you are about 25 miles more or less in the direction you were traveling and getting knocked around in not counting how you may or may not have been set by wind, wave or current. Now THAT is a pucker factor.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 10:28:06

I've had more than my share of equipment breaking at the wrong moment. You don't want to hear of the day the wind died, the motor failed to start and the waves were taking me to the rocks in a Daysailer II.

Ya know, I'm getting more and more clear about why I like to sail. I enjoy sailing because of the primal connection between the sailor, his boat and the elements. I think that I'll forego the GPS for this season at least.

I'm going to sail in a very crowded area. (By the way, I'm told it's the home of the busiest Coast Guard station in the country -- by the Coasties at the station.) I want to concentrate on situational awareness, reckoning and enjoying the elements.

I'm going to buy the book Don recommended. I'll get the charts for the west half of Lake Erie. I'll get a Danforth.

Thanks, guys.

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 12:57:14

Actually 33 United States Code 25 § 1223a MANDATES the use of ENC for while operating on the navigable waters of the United States for:
-A self-propelled commercial vessel of at least 65 feet overall length.
-A vessel carrying more than a number of passengers for hire (the number TBD)
-A towing vessel of more than 26 feet in overall length and 600 horsepower.
-Any other vessel for which "the Secretary" decides that electronic charts are necessary for the safe navigation of the vessel.

The Coast Guard is supposed to have implemented regulations implementing this law before January 1, 2007. They are a bit behind the power curve on this at the moment. The new required rulemaking would add new, and clarify existing navigation safety equipment regulations in 33 CFR part 164 including electronic chart system regulations. and would also create a new 46 CFR part 165, and a new subpart: 46 CFR part 159, subpart 159.008. These new title 46 regulations would provide for specific type-approval procedures and quality assurance processes, respectively, to require uniform function and capability of equipment across a myriad of manufacturers. These changes would reconcile existing domestic safety navigation regulations with SOLAS Chapter V navigation safety regulations amended in 2000.

For now, the requirement for printed charts is codified in Sections 33 CFR 164.30 entitled “Charts, Publications, and Equipment, General” and 33 CFR 164.33 entitled “Charts and Publications”. These sections require that all vessels have printed marine charts that are published by NOAA or the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The charts must be corrected, be of large enough scale, and have enough detail to make safe navigation of the area possible. The “Applicability” section in 33 CFR 164.01 already excludes certain U.S. public vessels from the nautical charts and publications requirement in the above sections.

The Navy and Coast Guard are deploying commercial and government-developed software to to replace their paper nautical charts with digital navigation systems by 2009. In May 2005, the Navy's Aegis guided-missile cruiser USS Cape St. George became the first ship authorized to navigate with the Electronic Chart Display and Information System-Navy. Navy officials also approved it for use in the service's Los Angeles-class submarines. The Coast Guard has incorporated ENC technology integration it into their Deepwater program.

ENC based systems can improve safety in waterways because they present mariners with real-time information quickly and with minimal effort- improving situational awarness. An accurate, timely position based on Differential Global Positioning System (GPS) when presented on an electronic chart, provides mariners with the positioning accuracy they need to support navigation decisions. This of course assumes that the prudent navigator remembers rule #1- never relies exclusively on any one source of navigation information.

Mark

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 14:05:47

So I guess I should get a second chartplotter...

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 14:54:57

Cheap at twice the price.

In 2005, the Electronic Chart Display and Information System-Navy only cost $195,000 each and $218,000 per ship to install

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