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Whaddya know about surveyors?

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/28/2006 : 17:51:50

I've decided that the C25 is the boat for me. I've looked a two now and will look at a few more. I've decided that I prefer a fin but will buy the right boat for me and my budget regardless of keel type. I think the only restriction I really have is that I don't want a salt water boat since there are many on the great lakes (specifically Erie).

That leads to my question: What can you tell me about hiring a surveyor? Do I really need one? What should I expect to pay for one in the midwest? If I don't need one, is there a good resource for a novice to use to inspect a boat?

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - on

Johnny Whaler
1st Mate

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30 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 18:36:01

A surveyor can save you lots of money by spending a little up front. I had a good friend of mine (who is as close to a surveyor as can be and actually more knowledgable than most of them around here) look my boat over and he found a few things that I never would have.

It all depends on how well you know the model you are looking at and how educated you are about the possible flaws the model can have. A good surveyor does it for a living and will see stuff you may not. The swing boats definitly need a better inspection. I would also caution you to NEVER buy a boat that you can't see the bottom! Several people have learned this the hard way. Remember to open the bildge area and take a good look. The C25 is a pretty simple boat to inspect and the cost can't be too big if you hire a surveyor. Chances are good you won't be able to get insuance with out a recent survey anyway.

Use the survey in the bargaining process and get the seller to either pay for it or 1/2. Most sellers with nothing to hide will either have a survey or be willing to work with you.

Not sure what you are looking for age wise but there are plenty here in the Northeast in the 5,000-8,000 depending on the age, condition and how motivated the seller is. I bought a 1980 fixed keel that is spotless clean, great sails, roller furling, running water, solar panel, popets, consta-volt, solar vent fan and so on. It came with a new 8hp High thrust Yamaha 4 stroke. I got a great deal on this boat and it was on the low end of the above price range of $5,000. The seller bought a new boat and was very motivated. Keep your eyes open and you will find one. It's a small enough boat you can get a deal on one and have it transported easily. My boat was a great deal and I didn't even ned to wax it or clean the windows- it was perfect! There are plenty of deals out there. These glass boats don't rot away and there are plenty of them out there and be sure you remind the seller of this fact!

Good luck. You will love the boat. I have had boats for over 30 years and this was my first sailboat. My family of four had the best summer last season and we were very comfortable in my C25. I'm still a powerboater and am trying to get used of taking all day to get where I used to get in 30 minutes but now I realize getting there is 95% of the fun. I spent about $34.75 in gas last year compared to $3,475 the year before!

Edited by - on

Dick Johnson
1st Mate

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USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 18:49:34

The best advice that I have is to "survey" the surveyor. A friend of mine had one come to his boat. He jumped on the deck a few times and charged the buyer $700.00. Ask to see a recent survey that he has completed. It should be many pages long depending upon the boat. Have it surveyed out of the water.

Good luck

Edited by - on

Dave Otey
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 18:57:25

John, here is my experience with a surveyor which has been limited to one at this point.

If you are not familiar with a boat's systems a good surveyor can provide a great deal of knowledge providing you attend the survey process which I strongly recommend. He or she will walk you through the entire boat and explain what is being evaluated and why. If you get an opportunity to have an "in water" survey performed that would be a plus. The inverse is just as important as you will want to observe the condition of the hull, thru hulls, transom and transom hardware. I found that in the Ohio / Michigan area it can cost approx. $250 to $350 to have this service performed. A thorough inspection of your deck will be prudent to insure the bedding of your standing rigging has not been compromised by moisture. Pay special attention to the degree of moisture content present at all points of testing. Another to consider, If you plan to buy from a broker I would find a surveyor that is not affiliated with that broker just to remove any doubt regarding ethics.

On the choice of your C25 Fin / Fixed keel, if you prefer a boom that is out of the way and accomodates a bimini with ample headroom then I recommend the standard rig over the tall one. Good luck with your search. Don't forget to start the engine. A new 9hp engine will set you back about $2,000 or more.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 19:00:15

I can highly recommend Don Casey's [url="http://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-Sailboat-International-Marine-Library/dp/0071445455/sr=8-1/qid=1164760971/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9968782-7152664?ie=UTF8&s=books"]Inspecting the Aging Sailboat[/url] when you're first looking at a boat. You can fairly quickly discern which boats are worth a second look and those that you should discard out of hand. We used this book to whittle down our short list and once we found our boat, we actually decided against a survey. So far I haven't found anything too grievous that a surveyor might have with the exception of some wheel bearing problems. When shopping for a boat, I would look at as many as you can get yourself on, simply to get your skills at finding problems tuned up and to get to know the class of boats you're interested in. Most owners are willing to let you poke around their boats a bit, even if they're not for sale as they're proud to show them off. You quickly learn to recognize boats that have been taken care of, and those that have been neglected or abused. We found a Catalina 30 that we really liked, but crawling back under the cockpit I found where they'd installed the pedestal steering as a after thought. The cable runs were scary and the mounting of the quadrant was terrifying, an accident waiting to happen. Had I not read Casey's book, I wouldn't have known to look. I told the broker about it, but he didn't seem too concerned and I doubt that he informed the owner or any potential buyers. We took a year to find a boat we both really liked and are quiet happy with. Casey's book helped us find it.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 19:57:43

First, you've made an EXCELLENT choice in a boat, hope you find a good one!
I had a friend recommend a surveyor, but I wanted some other choices. I called several marinas, none of them would do it, but three made recommendations, in each case it was the same guy - who was also my friend's choice!
As a newbie, the surveyor was really helpful in explaining a lot about the boat, things to watch, and why in fact I had found a 25 in great shape.
There are generally three levels of survey; Pre-purchase, Insurance/Financial and Appraisal.
I paid about $285 for an appraisal.
Good Luck - Jerry

Edited by - jerlim on 11/28/2006 19:59:03

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 20:15:37

Hey John,

Just sent you an email with the names and weblinks of some local guys.

dw

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2006 : 23:42:55

A good place to ask about surveyors is marine insurance companies.

Since you'll need to shop for insurance anyways, you can sometimes work a deal. I've found that Surveyors and Insurance companies often refer each other, and often pay each other for deals they bring in.

Many insurance companies will not insure a used boat without a survey, especially if you're looking at a 10+ year old boat.

Most insurance companies will not accept surveys from non-certified surveyors.

I'd also recomend getting as much info as you can on the prospective boats, especially pictures and location of boats and post them here for forum members to give you some feedback. Who knows, somebody here may even have personal knowledge about your future boat. At least we'd be able to point out some things that you may want your surveyor to take a closer look at.

And, I'd want a detailed sail inventory including purchase date of sails.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5896 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 07:42:25

The buyer customarily pays for a survey, regardless of whether he ends up buying the boat. Don't use a surveyor that is suggested by the broker. Find your own. Any qualified surveyor is preferable to the broker's surveyor, even if you don't know anything about him. Be present during the survey. When you hire the surveyor, ask him if he'll give you a reduced fee if he discovers a serious, deal-breaking flaw in the boat early on. Usually they will. Your purchase offer should be conditioned on a satisfactory surveyor's report. The purchase offer will specify a date when you have to decide whether or not you're going to go through with the deal. Make sure you will receive the surveyor's written report at least a week before that date. Don't pay the surveyor until you receive his written report. If you receive it late, don't pay him at all. The most valuable purpose of the survey is to help you negotiate the final terms of the deal with the seller. If you don't receive the report until after the time when you had to make the decision to buy or not to buy, then the report was useless in helping you make the decision to buy or not to buy, and it was useless in helping you negotiate with the seller. The way you use it to negotiate terms with the seller is that, if the report discloses any unanticipated defects in the boat, you provide the selling broker or the seller a list of all the defects, and negotiate with him for the repairs. Maybe he will pay the whole cost of repairs, or you might share the costs of repairs, or have some other agreement. It's all subject to negotiation. Don't be overly hard-nosed, however, because, if the deal doesn't go through, you will still have to pay for the survey. The chance of paying for a survey and not eventually buying the boat sounds risky, but it isn't that bad. It just emphasizes that you should only order a survey on a boat that you are serious about. If you aren't sure, don't let the deal progress that far.

Surveyors don't check motors. If you schedule a sea trial while the surveyor is present, most will participate in the sea trial.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 10:28:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Surveyors don't check motors...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not necessarily true. Mine ran the Honda and did a temperature scan of the block to detect possible cooling port blockages. I never asked for that--never even thought of it.

Regarding knowledgeable friends, unless they have a moisture meter, they won't really be doing the same job. Even on a $5000 deal, it's the best $350 you'll spend. You'll end up with a prioritized list of things to attend to, and you'll be less likely to become the unwitting owner of a huge lawn ornament you can't sell for any price.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/29/2006 10:32:32

Rich G
Navigator

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226 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 12:27:02

I had Cerberus surveyed before I bought the boat. It cost me $400 (in Mass.) and I got the seller to drop his price $500 because of it. Money well spent and worth every penny!

And, like was stated above, I have a prioritized list of what needs to be done.

Even if the seller had not dropped the price, the money spent was worth the peace of mind.

Best advice I can give you: If you're worried about spending $400 - %500 on a surveyor who undoubtedly knows more about boats than you do and knows where to poke his head, his nose and his moisture meter, maybe you shouldn't buy a boat. $500 is a drop in the bucket. You know, that bucket with a hole in it that leads to the water where you pour your money . . .

I've easily spent at least as much on improvements to the boat as I did on the boat, and it was in REALLY good condition!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 12:35:21

Keep in mind that John is in Cleveland. Running a motor right now is a bigger ordeal than in the summer when the boat is in the water, even with an outboard it would require setup of a big garbage can or earmuffs and a hose.

Some surveyors will recommend purchase contingent on working motor in the spring (inboard mostly), charge extra to re-winterize the engine, or take the motor offsite.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 14:08:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I've decided that the C25 is the boat for me.

That leads to my question: What can you tell me about hiring a surveyor? Do I really need one?...If I don't need one, is there a good resource for a novice to use to inspect a boat?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you really need one?... To answer your question, no, not really. Should you get a survey? That depends on how comfortable you are making your own assessment, the cost and size of the prospective boat, or if the bank/insurer requires one.

Personally, I'm fairly comfortable self-surveying boats in our class and price range, and have done my own inspections on my last two sailboats. Generally, one can tell off hand whether or not a boat has been well maintained, abused, or just simply neglected.

Having been around boats my entire life (powerboats), I'm confident that I can check out an outboard to see if it is working properly. Heck, I do that as a matter of course before, during, and after every season. I can tell if a boat has blisters, needs bottom paint, has a soft cockpit floor, spongy decks, or leaky chainplates because I look for those things constantly. The same goes for the electrical system, plumbing, sails, rigging, etc.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't get a survey (insert disclaimer here

), but a C25 is not a complicated boat and if you are somewhat familiar with a boat's potential problem areas and are loaded with specific knowledge of the C25, you could probably get away with not getting a survey.

Just my two cents...Your mileage may vary.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 17:13:26

I pretty much agree with Don. I feel comfortable self surveying a boat of this size, type and cost. But that is Now. In 1979 I bought a Coronado 25 for $7900. I thought that I was probably capable of self surveying, but the admiral pointed out that it would be a relatively inexpensive survey and would be part of the boat owning experience, particularly as regards some day in the future when I was buying a more expensive and complicated boat. She was absolutely right. The surveyor did a lousy job, missed things that I found later and generally performed poorly. But I learned afrom the experience and 7 years later paid a lot more money for a survey on a lot more boat and I actually knew what I was talking about in dealing with the surveyor. In sum, it's a cheap way of learning about the surveying part of boat ownership.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 17:34:20

Don't forget to add in the cost of pulling the boat out of the water with a travelift to inspect the bottom if the boat is not on a trailer.
I had two Catalina 25's surveyed (including mine)before I bought mine.
I learned a lot from both of them as I was present during each survey. One used a moisture meter, the other one a plastic mallett for percussion testing. You can really hear the dull thud in a wet deck.
I learned that boats in Clear Lake Texas will be really barnacled up and have blisters due to the very warm salt water. Boats in Lake Norman North carolina won't have barnacles, but my boat had hundreds of small blisters on it due to the very warm fresh water, which is the very worst for blisters due to the osmotic gradient. Fortunately they were only paint blisters. My gel coat doesn't have a one. But I used the blisters to get the price down another two grand from my original offer.
Good luck, and yes, get that Casey book too. And read the articles on surveying Catalina 25's in our Tech section

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2006 : 18:21:34

Well, I bought the book this afternoon. I'll use it to narrow down the search and become familiar with a lot that I don't know. But, that said, I'll likely get a survey of my final selection. I REALLY can't afford an oversized lawn ornament. All the boats I'm likely to look at will be on the hard by now since it's getting chilly on the Great Lakes so motor testing might be an issue. We'll see.

Thanks again for your great help.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 05:23:47

John,
You WILL find a deal.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 08:45:26

I think we should re-emphasize that you should be present during the survey. You're paying for it. Some surveyors like to be left alone, but most understand that you are the owner and you really want to know. I learned an awful lot about boats from my second surveyor.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 12:38:25

Ask to look at a copy or two or three of previous reports he's done for other clients. This will give you a good idea of what you'll get for your $$. We had our C34 and old C25 surveyed in 1998 by th same fellow, did a great job, a little bit over $300 for each. That's because almost regardless of the size, there's the same amount of "stuff" to look at in the size ranges of these boats. Anybody needing a survey in the San Francisco area, use Peter Minkwitz, Oakland, CA. I've referred him to a number of very happy skippers.

Even with the boat out of the water, the PO should have the engine cleverly hidden in a warm spot in his garage. Ask him to run it in a big waste can - that's what we did when we bought an engine from a private party.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 11/30/2006 12:42:04

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 14:40:51

Anybody know a surveyor in the Chicago area?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 15:00:46

That Davis company I sent you is nationwide

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