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Wind Speed Limits on the Cat alina 25

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jotruelove
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/17/2006 : 23:26:28

Greetings all!

I was discussing with a Catalina 27 owner the "comfortable" wind limits of my Catalina 25. He felt that anything over 15 MPH wind would require reefing the main. It got me to wondering if anyone knew of general wind speeds that makes the CAT 25 happy or unhappy. Is reefing at 12 to 15 MPS to be expected on a standard mast? Should the headsail be down at or before this point?

Thanks, as always for the replies. I appreciate the answers to other queries I have posted, and have joined the site as a member to be a part of the "crew"!

Jim :)

Fair Winds...

James Truelove
Pearl
1985 Catalina 25
Sunny Florida Panhandle

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 00:16:01

Jim, this is off topic but, your login caught my attention. Whats the story behind it?

Our first boat was named True Love after the Philadephia Story. Could not name the second one True Love II. So we hit on Fiorghra which is galic for the same name.

Back to the topic - your message implies that sailing with a reef in the main is not comfortable. Depends on the sea state but it can be a lot of fun and not scary at all. It is amazing what a difference it makes calming the boat down.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 05:14:03

Hi Jim, and welcome to the association
With my tall/wing I'll reef the main when it starts whitecapping, which I believe is about 15 knots. I still will sail at the same speed, with less heeling.

Edited by - on

kpaternoster
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:02:34

I always reef at about 15 kts. It's a much more comfortable sail too.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:22:06

Truthfully, I don't know what actual wind speeds I sail in. I listen to NOAA weather radio, but they just give wind speeds for the region and sometimes they don't jive with the actual conditions in my local area. Additionally, its hard to estimate wind speeds by wave conditions since in my sailing venue I can experience large waves in light to moderate conditions and small waves in heavy air. It all depends on wind direction and what's been happening in the previous hours.

So generally, I classify wind speeds as either no wind, light, moderate, heavy, or too much, and will reduce sail when I feel things are starting to get a little hairy.

One of these days, I will have a wind speed indicator, but geez are they expensive!

Edited by - dlucier on 04/18/2006 08:23:06

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1892 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:58:59

Not sure precisely what wind speed I reef at. I tuck in a reef when the rail gets near the water, and the weather helm becomes inefficient and annoying. I try to keep a headsail up until about second reef, but then I have a variety of headsails on board. I'd say if I were feeling a little overcanvased with full main and 110% working jib, I'd tuck in first reef before changing or removing the headsail. If conditions continue to build, I change down to a hard, flat 90% blade. Although I have a 50% or so 'storm sail', I haven't felt the need to use it yet. By the time first reef and 90% feel over powered, I'm ready to drop all headsail, and seriously consider going to second reef. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't deliberately put my C-25 and self out in those conditions. The only times I've really had to use second reef (as opposed to just practicing and testing) were out on Little Bahama Bank where there is no reliable VHF weather coverage, and no safe harbour close by when a summer storm pops up.

Oh yeah, I should mention I have a standard rig, swing keel, and I singlehand. Those are all factors in when to reef. And let me emphasize something that's already been said -- reefing to avoid being overpowered does not cause the boat to go slower, but it sure does improve control.

-- Leon Sisson

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5890 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 09:07:45

I'm like Don. I look at how the boat is behaving, and let that dictate when I reef. The wind is almost never a pure 15 mph. It's almost always 10 gusting to 20 or 25. Sometimes the gusts last for just a few seconds, and sometimes they last for up to 3 minutes. It isn't the 10-12 mph ambient wind that dictates when you should reef. That is determined by the strength and duration of the gusts. If the gusts are short-lived, then you can dump the mainsheet and steer to windward to keep the boat on her feet until the gust subsides, but, if the gusts are coming in waves that last 2-3 minutes, you'll be overpowered and out of control too much of the time, so you have to reef, even though the ambient windspeed might be 10-12. One thing is for sure. You always want to reef early rather than late, because it's no fun to be crawling around a boat that's out of control, trying to rig a reef.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 10:41:29

Jim - I don't know this from personal experience but i've read that since the 27 and 30 are 'beamier' (relative to their length, I guess), they will develop more extreme weather helm, and it will develop at lower wind speeds. Same is true for tall rigs vs. standard rigs. So, a standard C25 may be comfortable carring more sail in higher winds, as long as you do what the gents above say.. use all your depowering options (i.e. cunningham down hard, vang down tight, outhual tight, travelor down, mainsheet out, etc.). If you are still heeled over too far or have too much weather helm then reef. If you don't want to mess around with all that then just reef early and be happy.

The general rule of thumb is really that when **you** (as the skipper) feels like it's time to reef, it's time to reef, regardless of wind speed. Don't be macho!!

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 10:54:08

As a relatively new sailor, with an Admiral that doesn't like heel angles over 5%....we start out with our main sail reefed and then let out the reef if sailing conditions and crew confidence allow.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 11:21:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 As a relatively new sailor, with an Admiral that doesn't like heel angles over 5%....we start out with our main sail reefed and then let out the reef if sailing conditions and crew confidence allow.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are allowed to use the main with your Admiral???

I've been trying to get my admiral over 5 degrees of heel for the last ten years, but those dang panic attacks kick in when we approach 6.

She may not have a sailor's constitution, but get her over 5 degrees and she can certainly curse like one!

I'm thinking she may have heel-induced Tourette's syndrome.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/18/2006 11:24:13

southern cross
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 11:24:12

Funny this comes up. I took my parents out on my 82 C-25 trfk yesterday (this is the second time they have ever been sailing). The cove where my marina is, is always pretty calm. We left the dock and hanked up the main sail and unfurled the geoa (all the way out). I noticed a few white caps out in the main channel, where we were heading, but I did not think much of it. I was planning on pointing her towards the wind and heading across the channel. We were making 6 knots easily, not heeled too much, and the wind suddenly shifted (one of those lake island things) I put the port rail in the water and my mom's eyes were about to pop out of her head. Now, if I had been out with a buddy, I would have held on and seen just what she could do in what I guess was a steady 15mph with long gusts up to 25mph. But after seeing the fear in my mom's eyes, I quickly furled the geoa back in and we made 3-4 knots under main only the rest of the day. Much more comfortable with family sailing. After all, it was not the wednesday night race.
By the way, before I furled in the genoa, I was making a steady 6-7 knots and a J-24 came by me with 4 onboard. He had to be making 10 knots on that thing. They were flying.

Puravida,
Zach

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:59:19

Your C25 will survive stuff the will scare the crap out of you. The speeds to reef at will vary boat by boat. They are largely dependent on your sails and your ability to flatten them. With the rags the boat came with, we were reefed at 12-15 knots. With the sails on the boat now, we didn't reef until 20 or so - but we have the sails way flat and were vang sheeting the main.

Start with full main and full head sail. As wind comes up, flatten each by pulling on outhaul and moving headsail car aft. Then change down the headsail or furl it a bit. then reef main. then reef head sail more. then second reef on main. the boat will be more balanced than if you go all or nothing on one or the other sail.

We sailed in 30 true with gusts to near 40 (in protected water) with a double reefed main and a scrap of headsail out for balance. The boat wouldn't sail with just the main - too much weatherhelm. Could take my hand off the tiller reaching along with about 18 inches jib out. I'm not going to reignite the "How Fast can a C25 Go" debate but in those conditions a C25 will go very, very fast indeed.

You know its too much when the boat will do 6+ knots with no sails up at all! Two summers ago I wound up running off before a supercell. Couldn't motor against the wind at full throttle. Turned around and ran. Scared the heck out of me!!

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 13:11:49

Jim, We have owned a Catalina 22 before we owned "Leprechaun" a tall rig, there is NOTHING wrong with reefing at the dock, we have a double reef point main and we now reef earlier than we would have

because of the tall rig. Please remember to acclimate your crew to the heel. Catalina 25 is designed to sail most efficently at 15 degrees. We go out sailing when alot of other boats stay in we use a storm jib, a reefed main in 20-25 knots of wind and its just like sailing with 7 knots of wind, just remember things happen faster when its windier. and its always better to have extra crew if they are available at higher wind speeds. Do that once and sailing in 7 knots will not ecer be the same

. verbalizing also helps before it happens to

. take care.. fair winds...

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 14:54:26

If you are thinking about reefing, do it immediately because you are probably too late. You can always shake it out if the wind is lighter than you think.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2006 : 16:07:48

"So, a standard C25 may be comfortable carring more sail in higher winds"
You are so right, Bill! In the Nationals last year Gary Savage flew a 155% and a full main - I think it was blowing 18 - 20 with gusts at the weather mark of about 28-30. We reefed our main (Tall Rig), hauled up our 155% and promptly put the lee rail under water!!

(It didn't help that my sailmaker had built us an especiaaly powerful genoa...)We had to drop down to a 110% to stay on our feet.
Even so, I applaud Gary for great seamanship - he had "Kansas Twister" going like it's namesake.

Derek

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 07:19:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jotruelove
 Greetings all!
Should the headsail be down at or before this point?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I would not take down the headsail completely in a strong wind unless all you have is a "big" genoa like a 150%. My Catalina 25 loses much of it's pointing ability when sailed with only a main. If you have to reef the main, switch the headsail to a 90% or even a storm jib and the boat will perform much better than with only the mainsail. Of course if you don't need to point up, and you can get back to your berth on a series of downwind courses, then the main by itself might be okay. In situations where you have a long way to go dead downwind, in very strong winds, it might be easier to take down the main and go with just the headsail. Less weather helm this way, since the jib is "pulling" the boat, like a front-wheel-drive car, whereas the main is "pushing" the boat. I was in the San Joaquin River once on a day where it was blowing in the mid to upper 20's, with short-period wind waves of 4' or so, and we had about 50 miles to or destination, almost all straight downwind. After an hour of hair raising round-ups and death-rolls (this with a 135% genoa partially furled and the main reefed), I tried dropping the main and unrolling the genny and it was MUCH better. The boat's wild corkscrewing calmed down and VMG actually improved slightly since I was able to hold a more consistant course. Boat speed was about the same as before, indicating that in really strong winds, you don't need a lot of sail up to make a Catalina 25 do hull speed.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 09:44:29

Larry brings up an interesting point regarding performance while running under genoa alone. For me, sailing with only the genoa gives me better performance than if I were running with a double reefed main and a partially furled headsail due to the abysmal sail shape of the roller reefed genoa.

As Larry noted, the C25 sails surprisingly well under genoa only with a balanced helm and rather good performance on all points of sail. In fact, while discussing performance with the PO of my boat when I bought her, he made particular note of the boat's prowess under genoa alone. This works out great for this singlehanded sailor because I can go out in weather that most would not since I can leave the main bagged on the boom and simply just pop the furling line and go. If things get too dicey, I simply roll in the sail and head home.

A year or so ago, I spent a few hours experimenting with different sail plans (mainsail and headsail, mainsail only, headsail only) taking notes on pointing ability, speed, helm balance, tacking ability,...etc, and found performance to be very close between the main/genoa and genoa only sail plans with each having about the same pointing ability and only a small reduction in top speed under genoa alone. With only the mainsail, performance was, in a word, horrid. Under main alone, my speed was reduced about 65%, I couldn't point, and I was unable to tack the boat.

Because of the boat's ability to sail well genoa alone, and the convenience of roller furling, I will singlehand in weather that boats with crew take a pass on. Additionally, with only one sail to worry about, sail trimming is easier and I don't have to worry about the boom and mainsheet causing havoc while surfing down wind.

Anyone else sail under genoa alone?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5890 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 10:43:15

I frequently sail under genoa alone too, but always use some mainsail when I need to sail to windward.

Generally, in order for the boat to sail well, you have to have a balanced sailplan. You need some sail area aft of the center of lateral resistance to push the stern to leeward and help the boat point to windward, and you need some sail area forward of the CLR to counteract the mainsail, and to push the bow to leeward and provide driving power. I can't prove it, but have had a theory that the genoa extends slightly aft of the CLR, and that the leech of the genoa partially performs the same function that the mainsail would otherwise perform, i.e., to push the stern to leeward. If that's true, then it would explain why the boat sails fairly well on genoa alone. That would mean that, by adjusting the genoa, you can adjust, to some extent, the balance of forces forward and aft of the CLR. It just isn't nearly as efficient as when you're using both sails, and there's much more force forward of the CLR than aft, which means the bow will have a tendency to bear off the wind.

But, I think the boat only sails well to weather, and under genoa alone, in a straight line, and as long as you have good boatspeed. When you tack, your boatspeed decreases, and, if you lost a lot of speed while tacking, you have to bear off quite a bit after the tack to regain speed. That causes you to lose a lot of the ground that you gained to weather on the previous tack, which means that, overall, the boat isn't able to gain ground to weather very efficiently under genoa alone.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/19/2006 10:56:13

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 12:39:46

My C25 Catboat...

On the day these pictures were taken, I can almost guarantee there were only two boats on the water...me and another hardcore sailor in his Catboat rigged H28.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 13:25:27

My largest foresail is a 110% JIB. What kind of Genoa do you have - and what would you recomend for a guy that wants to try racing?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 13:31:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 My largest foresail is a 110% JIB. What kind of Genoa do you have - and what would you recomend for a guy that wants to try racing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My North Sails genoa sizes out to a 137. As recommendations for a racing sail...I'll leave that to the experts.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 13:42:23

"My largest foresail is a 110% JIB. What kind of Genoa do you have - and what would you recomend for a guy that wants to try racing?"

You'll want a 110, 135 and 150.

Order of purchase depends on your venue... probably the 150 is next on your list.

Edited by - on

IndyJim
Navigator

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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2006 : 20:34:47

Jim,
I've always heard the salty dogs say "If you're thinking about reefing, it's probably too late". Reef early and often. Use your better judgement more and a anemometer less. As has already been stated, you can sail just as fast with less sail and keep her more upright. I only let it all hang out in stiff wind when I want my onboard guests to say "Don't you think it's about time to go home now?" Fair winds!

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2006 : 10:01:52

I just want to say that this is the kind of thread that adds tons of value and pleasure to my little boat. This information alone is worth the price of joining this association. I am building a manuel for Kamalla and this will surly be included.

Thanks for all of the great knowledge.

Clay

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2006 : 14:54:34

Clay, We are real firm believers in a Storm sail

,this just adds a NEW dimension to your sailing and raises the Fun level another notch.,

. On "Leprecahun" we have 2 sails that are below a 110. We have a storm jib and than an 80%. We are just bringing our 150% to the National Regatta in Cleveland.. cuz we want to WIN!

Fair Winds...

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2006 : 14:56:18

Bring em all Alan, you never know what might blow in.

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