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Sore but... pictures

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Initially Posted - 04/05/2006 : 16:12:59

Second step extension ideal for galley duties, guests, love seat, read a book/chart, fix your fishing gear, as well as a comfortable place to observe the world around you.

Step extension in fixed, no nuisance stored position

Step extension detailed view in stored position

Step extention view from the back

From the second step extension you will be in a sitting position for most galley duties etc.

Completed the project just now in response to last season's sore butts and to previous questions on this forum. Scraps of teak were used for the project. Project cost including hardware comes to about the price for a good dinner. Am working on the design for clip-on arm rests and a custom fitted porta potty (just kidding)

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - zeil on 04/05/2006 19:06:41

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 04/05/2006 : 19:02:42

Henk,
Man... you can sell that idea to Catalina! You do some fine work. Looks like it came from the factory that way(maybe it should have).

Another great Tech Tip! (where's Paul!)

Edited by - on

AADIVER
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Response Posted - 04/05/2006 : 20:16:27

How do you work the sink and stove sitting in front of the drawers and ice chest? How do you raise the ladder up for aft berth access at night? Beautiful work, but...

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 04/05/2006 : 20:47:23

Frank, If I'm not mistaken I don't believe the ladder on a WB swings up like it does on the WK.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 04/05/2006 20:48:37

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/05/2006 : 23:05:02

Henk, what a great solution... it is on my must do list.

Frank, don't fuss about your swing up companion way steps... getting in and out of the aft berth on a water ballast model is much harder

. Perhaps there is room after swinging the ladder up to pull the cooler out and sit on it.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 00:13:37

How is access to the aft berth on a 25 different than a 250? Per the pics, it seems you'd be sitting directly in front of the drawers and ice chest and not in front of the stove or sink. Why doesn't the ladder swing up on a 25?

Edited by - on

zeil
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 00:13:37

Thank you for your kind comments guys... This fun project was triggered by a previous "sore but." thread of just a couple of days ago. (thank you for the idea). You're right Arlyn, I wish the WB had a way of swinging the companion way steps too.

Would the step extention also work as a seat for a porta potty?? (just kidding)

Couple of comments/suggestions to be added
1) It would be simple to replace the teak support frame/legs by 5/8 SS tubing if you have a way of bending the SS.
2) Perhaps use will determine it necessary to provide a positive stop to the bottom of the support legs to the lowest step (top of WB valve housing) to prevent accidental shifting. At this time I feel that it is not required since the support frame is hinged from the back and tends to hinge/lock in a forward position. Since the SS piano hinge solidly lockes the seat in position no movement forward or sideways is noticed even by aplying all weight on the very edge of the seat.
3) A Velcro strap located on the companion way step runner be added to attach/lock the support legs in an upward position. ( will provide picture)
4) A very thin felt strip is added to the bottom of the leg frame to prevent wood to wood contact and possible sliding backwards. (Picture included) If required I gladly will provide construction measurements and "as built" comments to the forum

Please note the felt strip gleud to the bottom of the support leg frame preventing wood to wood contact and possible slipping. If, however slipping is noted we will add a clevis pin arrangement as suggested by fhopper... thank you!!

Edited by - on

528
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 07:51:57

Henk,

Excellent idea and very nice work. This forum is one of the best anywhere!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 08:50:39

Frank, the bottom step on the 250 water ballast houses the ballast valve under the step/lid and aft of the companionway steps is the block and tackle for the center board so swinging the steps up wouldn't help much.

Henk, did you have any footing concerns whatsover? Giving more thought, I wonder if descending shows any tendancy for the step thickness to catch a heel.

Without detracting from Henk's great solution for a seat board at the galley, I do wonder if one slight change would be helpful, that is using hinges that allow offsetting the articulating point back the thickness of the step so that it wouldn't be a possible heel catching issue. Doing so however would sacrifice a few square inches of bum support.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 11:53:32

Henk,
Great project. I showed my wife last night and it's added to the list.

Arlyn,
There's not enough room under the step to move the piano hinge.
You could move the hinges back but you might use 3 separate strap hinges.
Here's one of Henk's pictures to show what I mean.

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 04/06/2006 12:01:14

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 16:58:54

Russ, you're right. I noted that in the pic and discovered it as well when tackling the project while it was hot.

My design approach especially on a boat is to list the objectives and decide which can't be compromised and the design has to be made to fit the remaining list.

The list in order of importance
<ul><li>it couldn't compromise safe use of the steps</li><li>it needed to be large enough to be comfortable</li><li>it needed to provide easy reach to the sink and galley counter</li><li>it needed have easy storage</li><li>sitting height needed to be optimal</li><li>easy to set in place and stow</li><li>attractive</li><li>fairly easy to make</li></ul>
Setting a board across where the hinged addition would be and after a couple of times up and down, it seemed that the hinged seat might not be my best option for size 13 feet. Cutting a board the size of Henk's seat addition proved it reasonable but left the sink and counter top a full arms reach away. It seemed a little larger and perhaps a slightly taller would be nice.

Checking the measurements of the heights of the steps, they are not evenly spaced with the 2nd step where the seat board was desired closer to the bottom step than the 3rd step.

While contemplating raising the step to make the seat board larger, it occurred to me that if the step were raised, an easy mounting system would be stringers that slid between the now raised step and the stainless frame.

The project departed there from the hinged seat that Henk used and which I'd set out to emulate, toward a slide in seat board that wouldn't compromise toe space. This allowed expanding the size to gain easier reach to the galley and a bonus beyond my earlier goals... the fuel locker cushion could be used for a much better comfort factor.

A storage issue had to work however and it turned out that the seat will store perfectly between the steps and the hose for the center board cable, in fact it locks itself in place, not even requiring a strap to hold it.

Construction was fairly simple. I used a wood TV tray aquired at an outlet store... Walmart has the same units for about $10. The wood is medium hardness, strong, and solid rather than plywood.

I altered the size only by cutting a large radius on the fore section and enlarging the aft radius corners slightly. The trickiest part is sorting out the tray legs. If carefull, the stringers and downlegs can be sorted out with the pivoting rivets all ready done.

The downlegs if cut and sanded carefully on one side of the radius will have good friction and lock in the down position so they can be positioned near the front of the bottom step without fear of sliding off.

Two scrap pieces of the legs were used for raising the 2nd step 3/4 of an inch and because of the thickness of the step mounts, the 7/8" height gives an exact dimension for stringers from the seat to slide under the step between the step and the stainless tubing stair frame structure.

Raising the step is a good thing...it makes the steps more uniformily spaced and betters the seat height. The four seat screws need replaced with 1" longer.

The stringers are simply screwed to the bottom of the seat board so as to form a lateral fit on each side of the step supports and the legs cut to match the height needed to sit on the bottom step.

As can be seen in the pic of the upside down seat, one leg is folded for storage and the other prepared to support the seat. The stringers slide in for a tight friction fit and the legs turn down. By leaving the leg radius slightly large near the rivets, it makes a good friction fit so that the leg is firm but easy to raise/lower.

The goal not met is attractive. Though it stores neat, the bottom is viewed behind the steps while in storage, a reasonable sacrifice as the wife has been calling for a seat there for three years and is going to love it.

This project has been lingering in my mind for several years... thanks to those who made it a hot issue.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 04/06/2006 17:21:05

zeil
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 18:33:29

Arlyn: I had no idea that so many areas and so much criteria affects this project. You are to be highly commended for your wonderful capability to articulate and find descriptive wording exactly what it does or does not need to answer too. Parts of the description I can understand and some of it is a bit beyond me… but I’m learning

Instead of trying to describe here are some pictures

You'll notice from this top view that the 3/4 inch wood thickness protruding beyond the step is hardly noticeable, is very tight to the normal step without crack for a high heel to get stuck in and not obstructing safe passage in any way.

To make absolutely sure I kindly requested my wife to walk up and down several times without telling her the reason for doing so. She did not notice or observe any change and only after the experiment did I point this out to her.

However, if Catalina would factory install anything like this step, they may perhaps encounter some legalities and/or restrictions as per your suggestion (Thanks for thinking of this aspect Arlyn)

Please also notice that the top step is slightly out of line with the other steps. A cosmetic eye sore perhaps to some but no problem to me at this time

As Arlyn corectly points out had I raised the step, which was entirely possible, by adding 1 inch strips of (teak) wood below the second step, I would have gained one more precious inch to the lenght of the step making it even better to reach the sink and stove top. The measurements are respectively aprox. 8 inch, 8 inch and 6;5 inch for between the tank top step and second step.

My wife did a trial run while using the extended seat and found that she can reach everything adequately. (This extension you guys is a wife pleaser...
(For once I don't need to bring flowers home and maybe not even for some weeks to come)

The reason I did not cut the leading edge of the step round, although a rounded step as per Arlyn design would have been beneficial for storing the step totally out of the way and gaining much better access to the valve compartment where we store cleaning bottles and materials. Now it can only be opened, which is no problem at all, only in stored step position.

This picture shows that the step extension happens to be at the exact right level as compared to the $6.00 foldable Wall mart stool we used in the boat up till now.
If I did this project again, I would have for sure added the one inch strips below the step and mounted to the SS brackets, to gain one more precious inch of step lenght

Questions, comments, suggestions, additions, deletions??
please provide your response...

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 20:27:22

Henk, I'd quickly agree that the initial concern I had with the edge of the seat protruding beyond the step didn't seem much of an issue in my test up and down.

I should point out that I'm a framing contractor specializing for many years in large two story homes, many with exotic curved staircases and framing them was always an enjoyable challenge. Of primary concern were fundamental rules of stair safety. One simple rule is conformity... no riser higher than another and no tread a different width than another... so it would be a fair characterization that I'm overly influenced.

There was a day when some framers built stairs to a standard set of dimension and then the last step was a bastard step to finish... inspection codes and safety issues won't allow that any more.

It can be noted that Catalina has abandoned the teak steps as exist on our earlier hull numbers (not positive this is true for water ballast models) and gone to a composite materiel with turned up ends... perhaps to meet an industry safety issue.

The name of the game in liability is once an issue is understood... a manufacturer is liable from that point on. As a boat heels, having the ends turned up greatly reduces the chance that a wet foot will slip sideways off the step.

Anyway, I've digressed too far. My larger concern as I tested was my size 13 (sometimes 14) feet when ascending the steps didn't like the encounter with the board parked in the position blocking the toes. I doubt it would be any issue for reasonable sized feet and had I those, I'd likely have a hinged seat as you outlined because your design fit all the other design requirements listed.

The only significant benefit beyond possibly working better with extra long feet is that the seat is larger and the fuel locker cushion fits nicely but unless the seat is used more than I think it will, that is of no consequence. I consider your design the better of the two for most needs.

As you so well pointed out, those using the galley will appreciate.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 04/06/2006 22:13:16

AADIVER
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Response Posted - 04/06/2006 : 23:14:50

Thanks for the WalMart 6 buck stool tip; gonna git me one. Why wasn't that satisfactory for working the sink and stove?

Edited by - on

zeil
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Response Posted - 04/07/2006 : 13:41:25

Frank: Glad you noticed the $5.95 plus tax Wall Mart (Canadian dollars which probably is $2.00 US) (Just kidding)

You know how it is, we're always looking for improvements during driveway sailing time. The "Sore But..." subject posted earlier on this site triggered my curiosity and interest to find some sort of permanent solution. I’ll admit that I’ve considered doing something along those lines for some time. Once on that track though it is hard to stop. As I saw the step extention shaping up, which seemed functional and pleasing, I had the urge to finish the project.

The stool, however, will continue to do marvelous job and made work below easier as well as accommodate extra guests or helping the wife with dishes, chores, etc. when required. It even matches the interior color theme. We'll keep the stool on board for sure, even though it is one more thing to stow.

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zeil
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Response Posted - 04/07/2006 : 17:18:38

Arlyn: You ARE indeed living on big feet and I’m sure fun to match??
Few things are more unsightly, irksome and dangerous than different risers and treads on the same stairway.
I'm sending you an e-mail in response including a request

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 04/07/2006 : 17:43:54

With you guys talking about treads and risers, I looked at my WK steps today and the top tread is wider by 2 inches than the others.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 04/07/2006 17:44:35

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/07/2006 : 22:33:29

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Few things are more unsightly, irksome and dangerous<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Chuckling here.... You'd be equally correct if talking about the feet instead of the risers and treads

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zeil
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 00:08:16

Arlyn: This is hilarious and I'm laughing out loud... in all sincerity I did not see a metaphor... glad that you have a good sense of humour
Henk

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 09:11:04

Arlyn, could you post dimensions for that project (how about putting it on your website?)

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 16:29:08

Paul...done
[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/galley_seat.html"]galley seat[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 04/08/2006 22:28:17

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 18:54:20

Hey Paul - this would make a great tech tip

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 20:05:57

forgive my ignorance.... are these two ideas only sutiable for the C250WB the C250(any) or the C25 also? I'm assuming it's not applicable to the Capri (right or wrong?)

paul

Oh, need a pic of the seat(s) in use too!

If that comodore that was featured the other day is available, that would enhance the pics

Edited by - britinusa on 04/08/2006 20:07:09

kevinmac
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 20:46:23

Hey Arlyn,

What tool do you use to create these great drawings?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 22:21:18

Kevin, I use Microsoft Paint that comes with windows... the first time or two using it goes slow but after some practice it goes much faster. The drawing above took about an hour.

Edited by - on

zeil
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Response Posted - 04/08/2006 : 23:59:26

Arlyn: This is absolutely great stuff... thank you for providing an alternate seating choice!! Your seat looks great and very functional too. What took us sooo long to dream up this wonderful improvement??

Our wife's will thank us for a long time to come.

As well... steering remotely from the cabin in comfort only happens in large boats, right? Well, perhaps our C250's have a lot of potential and some things the big ones can't do like cruising over land etc.

As shown in your drawing I gladly would have raised my seat in order to gain a little more seat length but, further testing today assured us that the step extension surface is sufficient for most/all functions and... importantly that it allows unobstructed passage to the aft berth compartment without having to remove/step over/ around the seat extension. The same is true when going up and down the companion way, although extra care need to be taken...

I’m confident that more variations to these basic ideas and designs will be forthcoming. Henk

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