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Jim's New Capri 25

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Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/28/2006 : 23:43:56

Jim just took a look at the photos of the boat, She looks good. The bottom paint looks normal to me because I just did my bottom last spring. I would invest in some crappy cloths or a old painters suit. I did notice some differences with your Capri 25.

1. The first photo there is a piece of wood that goes across the cabin top from port to starboard, I know that mine does not have this wood. I do not know if it was added by Catalina, but is there for cabin deck support.

2. I see that you have North Sails (bags)

3. Nice Stereo - Upgrade from 8 track

4. I see that there are 4 cabin top winches, most Capri 25's only have two.

5. The spreaders on the mast are swept back, Capri 25 spreaders are strait out from the mast, I am thinking that the swept spreaders might be for the removal of the lower forwards. Is there a Babystay?

6. Is the Cabin top Blue?

7. Nice looking trailer, and yes most of the time one movable jack is placed near the other pad, and one is raised and the other is lowered, You will also have a problem with the bottom of the Keel. Or most people paint there boats using the Crain. Another choice is to paint the bottom, leave the pads, launch the boat and put the boat up on a hydrohoist to finish the work, this is what I did.

She is a nice looking boat and she will make you all very happy. Did the owner give you any info on the boats history?

C.S. McKillip
Ericson 33

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 11:20:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Capri25 
2. I see that you have North Sails (bags)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
By far the best feature of this boat I've found to date is the sail selection!

Well, if you discount the 2 rags I found stuffed in the laz.

All North, all recent, and all in great shape from what I've determined so far (haven't had 'em fully out yet). Looks like 2 jibs, main, and 2 kites - one 0.6 and I'm not sure about the weight of the other.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">3. Nice Stereo - Upgrade from 8 track

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I *had* to take that pic!

Gotta like the ability to dub cassettes while racing! Consider that one GONE! Fortunately I kept a decent Blaupunkt(sp?) CD player from my old 190E - think I've just found it a home.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">4. I see that there are 4 cabin top winches, most Capri 25's only have two. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I haven't had much opportunity to compare setups with other Capri 25s, looking fwd to it.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">5. The spreaders on the mast are swept back, Capri 25 spreaders are strait out from the mast, I am thinking that the swept spreaders might be for the removal of the lower forwards. Is there a Babystay?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've not had the stick up yet, so I'm not 100% sure of the rigging. Prior owner has agreed to go thru the setup with me in spring. Fortunately, he seems to be pretty boat/race savvy, so hopefully these are mostly his upgrades. UNfortunately, the boat was also co-owned by his brother (who's maybe not so boat-savvy?) and I think there's some things here NOT so hot. We shall see!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">6. Is the Cabin top Blue?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
LOL!

My first thought was "WTF, is he high?". Then I went back thru the pics and there ARE a couple where in the light it does sort of look like a pale blue cabin top - hadn't noticed that! Actually it's a very light grey.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">7. Nice looking trailer...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks! The mid set of poppets was added aftermarket, nice touch. Paint might have been nice to inhibit the rust, tho. There's several dings in the leading edge of the keel where one can tell the trailer wasnt quite deep enough when they tried to recover the boat... Roops! I've filled those in, and am planning to add a 2x4 facing to the keel channel so I hit the wood, NOT the sharp end of the steel channel. The master cyl for the surge brakes looks like it's from a shipwreck, that'll have to be replaced. And the tires are pax car tires...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...most of the time one movable jack is placed near the other pad, and one is raised and the other is lowered...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Now I just have to get my grubby hands on a movable jack. Unfortunately, there's just NOT an overabundance of boatyards around here...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You will also have a problem with the bottom of the Keel. Or most people paint there boats using the Crain.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I can get the boat up partway out of the keel channel, so I'm hoping to get 95% of it...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...launch the boat and put the boat up on a hydrohoist...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hydro-who? Not around here... I'm lucky to have a gin pole at the marina to raise the stick.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">She is a nice looking boat and she will make you all very happy. Did the owner give you any info on the boats history?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks! Definitely looking forward to it, should be fun. Just lots of work to keep me off the streets in the meantime.

All I know is that the prior owners are not the first, and that it's been sitting basically neglected for the last couple of years. She just needs a lil TLC.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 15:42:27

Sounds Great I will post a thread I got form a member on SA about his setup and how the rigging should be tuned. Harstick has a tuning guide, but I have had really good luck with what this guy tell ya.

Tuning Guide Conversation Below:

You PM'd me the other day and I thought I had replied but evidently I didn't press "send".

There are numerous things to work on:
1. Mast rake - in 10 to 12 knots, I used up to 12” of rake. More rake will also help you with the car position on the #2. i.e. with more rake, it will have the same effect as moving the car aft and giving more twist up top. Play with the mast rake (using a variety of shims under the heel of the mast) to also give you the weather helm the boat needs. As a general guide, I used 5 degrees of weather helm (i.e. the tiller was 5 degrees off center line). In wind above 12 to 15 true, 8” of rake should be OK.

Regarding the #2, after 11 years of course and long distance races, and 24,000 miles with my boat in offshore and inshore races, it was out of the bag less than 20 times. It was definitely useful in choppy water, 15 to 20knots, twisted off in the top quarter to a third, with at least 4, 200lbs guys on the rail to keep heel angle down to around 10 to 15 degrees. The main was as flat as possible. The traveler position and the amount of twist in the main were decided on as a balance between pointing (relative to everyone else), weather helm, angle of heel and speed. In these conditions the #2 was FAST. We could point equally with other well-sailed boats, and our VMG to windward was improved if we didn’t pinch (maybe the occasional feather up in a sustained gust), but played the main very actively with puffs and lulls to keep the boat flat and fast through the lumpy water. When we needed to for tactical reasons, we could pinch with the best of them!!, Actually, I never sustain a pinch otherwise boat speed is killed. I get boat speed up, increase the heel a little and let the boat come up itself. At the point I anticipate when speed would be about to drop off, I would head down again smoothly to power up, then let the boat come up again smoothly.

2. Tuning of the rig. Use a steel tape measure to measure from the masthead to the port and starboard chainplates to ensure the top is centered while you tighten up cap shrouds. I preferred to have mine tight. Setup the balance between the forward and aft lowers to give about 2 to 3” of pre-bend. The amount of pre-bend depends on how your mainsail luff was cut. Balance the tension of both lowers so that the mast is STRAIGHT when looking up the luff groove. When you think it’s right, go for a sail in your typical conditions and check that it’s still straight. If you’re happy with this “baseline”, mark the shrouds somewhere near the bottom of the shroud (tape will do) and measure (e.g. from the bottom of the tape) to a convenient point on each chainplate and write down the measurements. These measurements will allow you to get back to baseline quickly if you re-step the mast or fiddle with tension in different conditions.

3. Headstay sag. It will vary depending on how much power you want in the genoa. You have to figure this out in relation to luff tension. The right amount of each also depends on wave action and the amount of power needed to keep the boat moving through waves versus optimal pointing mode. To help organize your thoughts and tuning/trim parameters, it helps to set up a spreadsheet listing each sail and the different conditions of wind strength and wave height/length
The problem with some general rules e.g. “a little more sag in the headstay in lumpy water can generate some more power in the genoa”, are that despite the general truth, you can’t apply them in all cases. It depends on your boat and rig. Too slack a headstay with insufficient wind can cause the rig to slop about in the choppy water. A sloppy rig in choppy water can also mean that energy is lost. In this situation, it might be better to have less sag and slopping about, and put more draft in the genoa via halyard tension, car position and sheet trim. It’s all about compromise and keeping an eye on what ultimately increases boat speed for a given point of sail.
In 10knots true, I would typically have about 2 to 4inches of sag. (Note: I worked with my sail makers (North/Fogh Toronto - standard and light air sails, staysails and spinnakers, North San Francisco - Medium air #1, #3, & North in England who did my heavy air #3, #4 and storm sails) to ensure the sails were cut for how the conditions the rig would be tuned for. All my genoas and jibs were cut for optimal shape with 4inches of sag) Note: I had a load cell on my forestay and a display in the cockpit that would give me lbs or kg’s of load. This helped to ensure I could repeat settings exactly without having someone guess by going up forward to look.

4. Genoa Luff tension. As you know, the tension will affect draft position of the sail. Upwind, you need to also consider the draft position of the combined foil of genoa and main, not only each sail separately. The tension will also change shape of the curve in the luff. A flatter entry gives the helmsman a narrow groove on the telltales. This is OK for clear air, flat water and optimal pointing mode. A rounder entry (i.e. more curve forward) will give you a more generous “groove” to drive in waves and/or disturbed air.

5. Genoa distance off spreader: Upwind in <5 knots true, flat water =, 12” down to 6” off spreader going for speed with not much headstay sag. Once going, I would perhaps trim in to 4” off and check pointing versus the competition. At these low wind speeds, I would spend more time trying to distance myself from the immediate competition with a compromise between boats speed and their relative pointing angle. You will often find the competition points too high in low wind speeds.

Upwind in 5 to 10knots true, flat water = 6” down to 1” off spreader at 10 knots true with no sag, flat genoa luff entry
Upwind in 5 to 10knots true, choppy water = up to 4" Sag, 1” to 2” off spreader and perhaps fuller draft to give power.

In all the above winds, you should be able to position the genoa car so that the tell tales all luff simultaneously. i.e. forward a hole or two in lighter winds when the sheets are eased, back to the standard position when trimmed in.

Upwind in 10 to 15, flat water = NO SAG trimmed in hard and move the car back a hole or two if you can’t keep the heel angle down with the main alone. Try not to twist off more than the top quarter or perhaps 1/3 for short periods. The reason is that the more it’s twisted, the more you will be straining the foot around the base of shrouds. If your main is already flattened, at this point it’s worth thinking about a sail change, either a headsail, or 1st reef in the main. In lumpy water in this wind range, I would keep the bigger headsail up, put in a reef in the main and move the genoa cars forward again to a less twisted position. In flatter water and 15 knots, I would keep the full main and go to the #2 set for power i.e. 4” SAG, 50% halyard tension, cars set so all telltales flying together, trimmed in to 1” off spreader.

6. Regarding your mainsail trim: You have a masthead rig and the concepts are subtly different to a fractional. First rule: don’t ever sheet the *** out of it just to flatten it. That concept works more for fractional rigs in order to bend the top of the mast to spill wind.

The general guideline I used going upwind on a Capri (or most masthead rigs with a J and E measurement about the same) was to have enough twist to keep the leech just below the top batten parallel with the boom and the telltale slightly lifting. Then I would position the traveler to give me some weather helm (5 degrees approx) while checking how the remaining tell tales are streaming cleanly off the leech. You should have a telltale on each batten and another set half way between the top batten and the luff. This one allows you to see how much turbulence you have up there while trying to get the top batten in position and the telltale flying as you want to. Again, it’s all a compromise for the best boat speed number and pointing.

Then depending on the wind strength, I would carry as much fullness in the main as the genoa slot would allow (after I had the genoa trimmed as needed). The main would also be as full as needed to keep the angle of heel around 15 degrees while pointing with the competition. As soon as I felt the main was too full to keep the boat flat with the boom where I wanted it for weather helm, I would start adjusting the cunningham and outhaul in equal proportions e.g. 1/4 Cunningham, 1/4 outhaul etc…. until we got the heel and weather helm right. Before changing to another headsail or reefing the main, the each of the sails’ respective trims would have to be near the following extremes:

Genoa: Maximum backstay, maximum halyard tension (also considering the wave conditions), genoa car back so that the top third was twisted
Main: Max halyard, max cunningham, max outhaul, over 1/3 of luff still pumping.

Note: I thought the standard Capri class #3 size and sheeting position was garbage. I found it was uncompetitive against any other similar boat (J24, Wavelength 24, Olsen 25, Merit 25, S27.9, etc…. I went to a full hoist blade with inboard tracks on the coach roof. To do that, I had to remove the forward lowers and replace them with the baby stay. These mods took me away from the Class rules but as I was racing 99% under a handicap rule, it didn’t bother me. I could also revert to the class setup any time I needed to. The full cut blade (nice deep draft for low end power), was great between the top end of the #1 (12 to 15knots true) and 25 knots true (with a reef in the main at that point). After that, the #4 with 1 reef in the main, would take me between 22knots and 35knots (plus the 2nd reef in the main). After that it was storm jib + 2 reefs to 40 knots. After that it was either #4 or storm jib and no main. After 45 knots it was: how best to survive and get around the course or go home safely.

I know what you mean about pointing with the J24’s. From personal experience, I know it can be done while maintaining good boat speed. In 10knots true, should beat a J24 on a W/L course. Upwind it will be close but you should still have an edge. Downwind you should walk away from them. In 15 to 20knots, you should still be able to point with them but it will take more aggressive mainsail trim and jib twist to keep the boat flat. If you find you are at 20 degrees of heel, you make a lot more leeway and they pull away upwind.

After dumping the forward lowers, putting Navtec Rod on the cap shrouds, back stay and forestay, and using a baby stay, plus slight changes to sails, 100 lbs more ballast, and chainplate rigging below decks like a Capri 30, it was equipped to do Category 1 Offshore (crewed and single handed). It was truly a Midget Ocean Racing Club boat and very competitive in a wide range of wind speeds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I played around with the backstay to get the right bend in the mast. I was finding the travler 6" to weather and tightening the sheets so the to batten was inline with the boom. It was a really light air day, so I think that the settings helped out. We were pointing allot better with the group, But it still could use some tweeking.

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That's good to hear it made an improvement. You will probably find you have more effective range of genoa car position for the #1 & #2 headsails. Now that you have the rake and have established how much prebend works for the way your main was cut, I suggest using the backstay simply to manage the amount of headstay sag and don't worry about mast bend. The rest of the main trim can be handled by halyard, cunningham, outhaul, vang and mainsheet. As you know, you can play with the combination of sag and halyard tension to change the draft and power of the heasail. To minimize how many things you are changing at one time, in the early days of understanding the boat, I suggest you try this:

1) Set backstay tension upwind so that headstay sag is always 4" in all wind conditions (or whatever works best for the sag that's been cut into the luff of your headsails).
2) Adjust headsail halyard tension for draft position for the wind conditions e.g. as a general simple rule, in 5knots of wind, ease genoa halyeard on the #1 until wrinkles are barely visible in the luff. At 10 knots, the halyard should be 90% and at 12 to 13 knots true, #1 halyard should be at 100%.
3) Adjust genoa car position for draft depth and twist/synchronization of the luffing of the telltales. (see earlier email re: car positoin and wind strength vs twist)

Don't forget to dump the backstay 100% off when going dead down wind and tighten as needed on beam/tight reaches (at least 50% of full on). Note: In really heavy air down wind, I usually put about 20% backstay on to take a little slop out of the rig and keep it more in column.

A tip re: the boom position upwind: Because the main traveller position changes depending on the amount of twist (vang, traveller position and manisheet tension), I never really looked at where the traveller was but judged the right position based on:
1) Twist and Upper batten orientation relative to the boom
2) Weather helm.

I found that in wind between 5 and 10 and relatively flat water, the boom was generally on the centerline, perhaps an inch above centerline at 5knots to give more helm feel and pointing. Sometime if I needed to momentarily pinch up on someone, I would bring the boom 2 to 4 inches above centerline, however watch this as speed will start to decline.

In really light air e.g. <5knots, don't try pointing too high (unless tactically you need to for short periods)....sail with the headsail a little eased (as described in earlier email); once you have the main twist you want, ease the traveller down until the main barely luffs; heel the boat at least 15 degrees and move weight forward. This will keep the sails full, reduce wetted surface area and the bow-down trim will help give more weather helm feel without over trimming the main.

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Chris,
No problem posting my tips on your website if you think they are appropriate and I don't have a problem if you use my name if you wish. When I bought my Capri in 1980, there were only two others in the vacinity and they weren't too competitive. There was no one out there that could help, not even Frank Butler at Catalina. When I called to talk to him initially about my pointing problem and then later about my MORC optimization and to discuss the sailplan, rake and rig mods I wanted to make for handicap racing (babystay instead of forward lowers, including the possibility of adding a small Volvo saildrive under the companionway step), he basically refused to talk to me and was quite rude about changing anything on the boat that could improve it's all round performance and rating. Ironic that when the Capri 30 came out it had the same kind of chainplate struts I put inside the Capri 25 to take some load off the bulkhead!! I also went to Catalina Yachts while on business in LA. I sat for an hour in their lobby and no one would speak to me about it or give me copies of contruction drawings where I wanted to beef up the hull and install the saildrive and possibly put a slightly heavier eliptical keel on (the latter I believe they experimented with too)

Given that we used to stow the outboard below in chocks I made under the companionway step, it was the same weight and location as a small saildrive. With a saildrive strut being close to the keel, I figured that the drag wouldn't be too much of a burden and our rating benefit was much better having an inboard. The other benefit was re-charging for long distance and overnight races and safer/better handling under power in rough conditions. So through trial and error, I went my own way. It took me half a season to get it really going so that beating J24's was not an issue. For three consecutive seasons in a fleet of 10 to 12 good MORC boats, we traded 1st, 2nd and 3rd places with a hot S27.9 and a hot Kirby 30 both of which were campaigned by the Ulmer Kolius loft. So the mods worked. We weighted about 300lbs more than the other 2 Capri 25's and they didn't have the same all round speed.

Some of my general tuning tips may work for you and some will be different because of my rig. In general the sail trim and rake should be useful, but since I went to Navtec rod rigging, and had a load cell on the forestay, the forestay length and Loos Guage info won't be relevant to the standard Capri.

For the mainsheet, I used the Spinlock system which gave a 4:1 and 8:1 purchase. It was very useful for quick release/quick trim and fine tune. I raised the traveler a couple of inches so that it was clear of the cockpit seats and increased the purchase to make make it easier to adjust the car position in heavier air. I also increased the puchase of the outhaul so that we were more inclined to use it actively to change gears!!!

Because I was also doing offshore races, I had to have double reefing lines for a 1st and 2nd reef. My main had a "droop boom" (IOR style to give free mainsail area under the rule) and so needed a flattening reef too (a bit extreme but that was the "fashion" back then). I also had 2 spinnaker halyards. That allowed us to do easy chute changes without going bareheaded and it also gave me a staysail halyard for my 100% Dynac staysail/wind seeker. To give me options on where to tack the staysail, I had a staysail track along the center of the foredeck. Sometimes we would use the storm jib as a small staysail when "white sail" close reaching on long distance races and the track was very useful for that too. I changed the original nav lights (which are illegal because they sat behind and were shielded by the forestay tang) and instead had a masthead tricolor + a pulpit mounted set of backup bow nav and stern lights. To be truly legal when under power, I added a steaming light which incorporated a deck flood light that was really useful on night races.

All these additional halyards and reefing lines meant adding some clutches/stoppers to the deck. I used Spinlock triple Cams on port and starboard sides for the 4 halyards, and spinnaker pole uphaul/downhaul, and built an aluminum bridge across the front of the companionway for the outhaul, cunningham, flattening reef, 2 reefs and vang. It worked really well. Using Cams on the halyard clutches and pole uphaul/downhaul was really useful because the cams allowed you to vary the amount of tension/drag on the halyard or uphaul/downhaul when you released it. This meant that when doing sail changes, you didn't need to have someone in the cockpit to gradually release the halyard while the foredeck crew took a sail down. The cams allowed the pit crew to ease the cam halfway and get back on the rail when doing a headsail change or when dousing the chute, ease it halfway so the foredeck crew could pull it down as quickly as they wanted, while the pit crew got on with hoisting a headsail and the remaining crew trimmed. All round it made sail changes and sets much quicker with fewer crew. It was really useful sailing double or single handed.

For instruments, I had a system from the UK that is no longer made but it's a forerunner to the current Nexus stuff. Forestay Loadcell, Windspeed/direction/VMG, Depth/Speed, Race timer, 2 Suunto bulkhead compasses, Windex (which incorporated a VHF antennae) and for long distance/solo/cruising: Autohelm with the wind vane steering option, 2 solar panels (aft sidedecks), wind generator, Radar alarm/detector, SSB, GPS, Loran, and RDF. I also completely rewired and grounded boat with a power distribution system I designed and had built in the UK while the boat was in Europe.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2006 : 16:30:36

Lots of excellent info - I can see many practice/experimental sessions in my future!

Edited by - on

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