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CC83
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Initially Posted - 01/26/2022 : 14:03:37

I was wondering if anyone has had any issues with the standard replacement rudder offered by Ruddercraft through Catalina Direct? https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-25/hull-deck/stern/rudders/c-25-standard-rudder-w-pintles-amp-shims-improved-fiberglass/

Long story short, I replaced my original rudder with the Ruddercraft one about 2 years ago. Unfortunately, the lower pintle failed during a race in December from what looks like a bolt failure where the pintle attached to the rudder. Thankfully, Catalina Direct was great about sending me a free new one based on the 3 year warranty. Before reinstalling, I figured I'd see if anyone here had any experience or advice to prevent the same issue from repeating itself. Pictures here https://link.shutterfly.com/ltJ3AODP8mb

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/26/2022 : 14:28:52

Many sailors don't tune their rig because they think it's too complicated, but it really isn't.

A poorly tuned rig puts a tremendous load on the rudder and can eventually cause it to break. When you feel excessive weather helm, the same tiller pressure that is making you arm weary is also stressing the rudder and its connections.

Excessive weather helm can also be caused by poor sail trim. I have a friend who broke his rudder twice by over-trimming his mainsail. He insisted on trimming his traveler to weather in the mistaken belief that it would make the boat sail closer to the wind.

So, tune your rig so that you have a very light weather helm, and never trim your traveler so that the boom is to windward of the centerline of the boat.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2022 : 15:06:02

I think we'd need to have a better idea of what you mean by a "bolt failure" to help much. Did one of the bolts through the blade break? Then what happened to the pintle? Did the strap or pin break, or the weld between them? Was this when heeling in big chop, such that the blade was getting pounded as the boat was pitching? This has broken any number of the older wood-cored rudders right at the lower pintle.

Do you have any pictures of the damage?

A balanced rudder like yours can hide the degree of weather helm Steve speaks of. You can have excessive weather helm but have it feel light, as you might think it should. The real signs are the angle of the tiller from the centerline and the sound of turbulence coming off the rudder on a straight windward course. The pintle is the fulcrum balancing the forces between the forward and aft areas of the blade.

Other things that can be tough on a rudder, pintles and gudgeons are sudden, hard turns. The better racers I've watched make their turns somewhat gradually, increasing the tiller angle (or turning the wheel) a bit slowly to let the boat start responding before putting full force on the rudder. A sudden turn creates more force and turbulence. and slows the boat more going through a tack--although it shouldn't break the rudder. (I experienced the value of this when sailing on the genny alone, when maintaining momentum in a tack was especially important.)

But it also could just be that something on your rudder was faulty.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

CC83
Deckhand

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8 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2022 : 19:11:35

Just as supplementary info, the replacement rudder that I bought does not have a core. It's solid fiberglass for the leading 1 inch or so, and then appears to be hollow fiberglass for the rest.

I noticed the issue after turning downwind at the upwind mark for a spinnaker hoist (~12-15 kts of breeze). With the spinnaker halfway up, I felt an insane amount of play in the tiller and looked back to see the lower pintle missing the forward bolt and digging into the fiberglass. My assumption is that the forward bolt failed during the turn downwind, but there is a possibility that the locking nut somehow worked its way out. Pictures should be at the shutterfly link in my first post; couldn't figure out how to put them in the message directly.

What you both have mentioned about the balanced rudder hiding some excessive weather helm definitely had to be a factor. We sail on Corpus Christi Bay, which has big wind (15-20 kts) and big chop (3-4 ft) pretty much daily. We don't have a furling system, so sail changes are a real pain (for the crew at least). When racing, we like to fly the biggest genoa, double reef the main, and squat the rail with as many bodies as we can get to show up. Cruising, we put up the smallest jib that's reasonable and try to keep the beer from spilling. I also have the rig tightened down to what I found most rigging guides to recommend (15% breaking strength at the backstay w/out any tension, 15% cap shroud tension), and a good amount of prebend. We did end up raking the mast back a bit too, which probably contributes a little to the weather helm. We definitely sail her in sporty conditions, but I rarely will go out with a steady breeze about 20 kts.

I learned to sail on big, heavy ocean yachts so wear and tear wasn't something I ever really considered too much on a normal rudder. From what I understand you're both saying, it might have been a matter of pushing the equipment too hard? And that a pintle-mounted rudder generally should be treated more kindly?

Thanks for the detailed answers, I really appreciate it!

Edited by - CC83 on 01/26/2022 19:13:40

Voyager
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Response Posted - 01/26/2022 : 21:01:06

Not that I have any experience with this, but I might focus on making the rudder a little stronger. If there�s a way to add some backing plates to strengthen the areas around where the pintles attach, that may be a strategy. Stainless steel plate would be my initial guess on this. If SS isn�t an option then thicken the fiberglass in that area.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/26/2022 : 21:56:17

The reason why you put pre-bend in a mast is to ensure that when you pull on the backstay, the mast will move forward in the middle and flatten the mainsail. That's fine for fractional rigs, but not for masthead rigs. Masthead rigs work very differently from fractional rigs. Fractional rigs are slender and bendy, and the forestay is attached well below the masthead. That enables the upper part of the mast to be bent back with a backstay adjuster.

A masthead rig has a much thicker mast, which is far less bendy, and the forestay is attached at the top of the mast. When you tension the backstay adjuster, the pull on the backstay is resisted by the forestay, so the backstay adjuster can't significantly bend the mast.

When you tune a masthead rig that uses a backstay adjuster, you begin by adjusting the rake. I suggest you begin with only an inch or two of rake. Forget about pre-bend. Adjust the lowers to hold the mast erect and straight. Leave the aft lowers slightly loose. Sail the boat to windward in about 10-12 kts of wind and take note of the tiller pressure. You want very slight weather helm. If weather helm is too strong, tilt the rig forward slightly. If weather helm is too slight, or if you have lee helm, tilt the rig aft.

Unlike a fractional rig, a backstay adjuster on a masthead rig doesn't help the boat sail any closer to windward. It powers up the rig for sailing downwind, on a reach, or in light air.

After you have tuned the rig, put your loos gauge on the forestay and tension the backstay adjuster with the correct amount of tension for the size of the wire. Then mark the backstay, so you can reproduce that tension. That will be the optimal backstay adjustment for sailing to windward. Over-tensioning it won't make the boat sail any closer to the wind. All it will do is put excessive loads on the stem and backstay tangs, which can damage your boat. When you round the windward mark, ease the backstay adjuster. The loose aft lowers will permit the mast to tilt forward, and the forestay should sway rather loosely. That will greatly power up the jib when sailing downwind or reaching or in light air.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

islander
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Response Posted - 01/27/2022 : 05:10:40

Bruce, I've seen where adding another set of pintles/gudgeons has been done so there is 4. Spreading the load out?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

glivs
Admiral

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Response Posted - 01/27/2022 : 06:31:00

We don't know the history of your pintles/gudgeons but time has shown the originals were undersized as evidenced by numerous failures of various degrees. CatalinaDirect now sells 1/2" pintles and gudgeons that are better reinforced than the originals. I suggest upgrading if you haven't already.

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

islander
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Response Posted - 01/27/2022 : 09:40:59

I had a pintle break also but for me it was the strap where the weld is. It was the older 3/8" pintle and I was lucky that the rudder didn't get damaged. I replaced them with the upgraded 1/2" pintles from CD. I still wonder if by doing the upgrade I just moved the stress to the rudder and now it is the weaker link. These rudders are known to break just below the lower pintle.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/27/2022 : 10:45:24

That raises an interesting question. A balanced rudder makes excessive weather helm feel lighter. It doesn't correct the cause of excessive weather helm. It just masks it. Excessive weather helm is caused by a poorly tuned rig. It takes a lot of force to break a stainless steel fitting like that. I wonder if some of the broken rudders and broken pintles are happening due to the combined forces created by poorly tuned rigs and balanced rudders?

Some of you probably wonder why I harp on rig tuning. It's because I know that a C25 with an original factory-built, non-balanced rudder can provide a very light weather helm if the rig is tuned correctly. A heavy weather helm requires that you turn the rudder across the water flow to keep the boat from rounding up. When you pull that hard on the tiller, it exerts tremendous pressure on the rudder as well as the pintles and gudgeons. In addition, all the drag that's created ruins your boat speed. A correctly tuned rig will make the boat point higher, foot faster and stand up better in a breeze

When people break rudders and pintles their first thought is that the rudder or pintles must be too weakly made or defective. If you'll greatly reduce the loads that you put on them, you'll experience fewer failures, and your race results will improve.

Chris, you said, "We did end up raking the mast back a bit too, which probably contributes a little to the weather helm. We definitely sail her in sporty conditions...." Nothing good happens when you rake the mast more than is minimally needed to provide a light weather helm.

When the rig is tuned just right, you can use sail trim to create a neutral helm in 15 kts of wind. With no drag being created by the rudder to hold the boat on course, you can let the tiller go and the boat will hold its course until it's knocked off by a wave or wind gust. That means you won't have to waste any sail power by dragging the rudder off line through the water.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/27/2022 : 20:15:27

FWIW -- I bought through Catalina Direct the epoxy version of the balance rudder made by RudderCraft back in 2007. I mounted it on the boat while on the hard and that night it rained. Within two days their was surface rust -- from fresh water! As I did not take pictures I never complained, however years later in a conversation with rudderCraft about a different issue I told them the stainless they were using appears to be sub par because of surface rust. Since day one I check my rudder often, the rust has not gotten any worse, but after looking at your picture I question if the hardware should be replaced. In RudderCrafts defense, over the past years getting top quality metal, especially stainless, has been challenging if not difficult. Still, unless you had hit something (or something hit you) this failure should not have occurred. However, was the mounting from the new rudder or was it the original pintal that was on the boat? If the pater, then possibly just years of use caused the failure.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 01/27/2022 20:17:28

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/28/2022 : 06:38:31

I gather from CD's description that their (Ruddercraft's) latest fiberglass rudder uses a stainless steel grid in place of foam core insided the fiberglass shell. I suspect that's what you and Peter Bigelow have. I've never heard of a bolt just missing from a pintle--you had to have lost the nut (obviously), raising the question of whether it was Nylock or had a lock-washer of some sort. The only other explanation would be the bolt breaking so both sides could fall out. Actually, that might be more likely, since it was gone.

All discussions about weather helm, rig tune, sail trim, etc., might have value, but this sounds more basic. I can imagine lots of failures with a transom-hung rudder like that, but don't believe one of those bolts through the blade should just break under almost any sailing conditions. And I never had one of my Nylock nuts loosen on my pintles--I only had two rudders on my C-25 over the seven years I owned her, but I've followed a lot of rudder failure discussions here for a lot more years than that. Most of the broken blades were original wood-cored models from boats up to about 1986 or '87, where the core had deteriorated and the blade broke off at the lower pintle.

I should defer to the racers here, but there could be something to your suspicion you might have been a little too rough on that little 38-year-old coastal cruiser...

Its transom-hung rudder is a known weak link--just one of the reasons it isn't considered a "blue water" passage-maker.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/28/2022 06:42:49

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/28/2022 : 09:45:06

The rust stains on Chris's rudder suggest that the bolts and nuts used to attach the pintle were an inadequate grade of stainless steel. Compare Chris's photo with Scott's photo, which shows no rust stains. Lower grade stainless steel fittings, especially in a salt water environment, can develop stress corrosion cracks, induced by sodium chloride impacted between the nut and the strap.

Stress corrosion cracking occurs when these three factors are present:
1. When stainless steel and chloride are present together,
2. When the fitting is under stress, and
3. In an environment where there exists dissolved oxygen and
chloride ions, such as seawater.

We can't be absolutely certain that stress corrosion cracking caused this failure, but, based on the visible evidence, it's a very likely suspect.

The best remedy is to change those three factors. The only way you can change #1 and #3 would be to sail on a fresh water lake, but, assuming you want to continue sailing in salt water, you can use a better grade of stainless steel hardware, in particular 316 stainless. You can change the second factor by reducing the stress on the fitting. By tuning the rig correctly, you can reduce the pressures on the rudder until they're negligible. The collateral benefits are that the boat will be a pleasure to sail and will perform better in every respect.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/28/2022 : 10:44:09

My rudder is a solid epoxy -- not fiberglass and no "core". I believe the surface rust on pintal and strap was from sub-par stainless. The pintal mount (gudgen) on my 42 year old boat sailed only in salt water has no (visible) rust.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 01/28/2022 10:45:19

islander
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Response Posted - 01/28/2022 : 12:40:04

quote:
My rudder is a solid epoxy

Do you mean HDPE?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

keats
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Response Posted - 01/29/2022 : 08:56:00

Steve, your post has convinced me it's long past time to tune my rig. I struggle to balance the helm and my boat is noticeably faster on one tack than the other.

I've looked over Bill Holcomb's tuning guide I found here and plan to use it.

Question: Should I buy a loos gauge? If so, do I need two sizes? It seems I can't find one that covers both 3/16 and 5/32.

Thanks in advance.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 01/29/2022 : 12:01:55

Scott -- yes HDPE -- Ruddercraft offers this option for the "balanced" rudder for C-22 and C-25

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 01/29/2022 : 12:52:24

Good for you Tim!

You really don't need a Loos gauge. You can use the "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" test - not too loose, not too tight, but just right. The idea is that you want each cable just tight enough to do its job, and no tighter.

The purpose of the forestay and backstay is to adjust the rake of the mast fore-and-aft. The purpose of the upper shrouds is to adjust the lateral erectness of the mast. The purpose of the four lower stays is to hold the mid-section of the mast in column.

With due respect to Bill Holcomb, who is one of the most knowledgeable C25 people, I think his tuning guide is much more complicated than it needs to be. It intimidates people from trying to learn how to tune their rig. Let me simplify it for you.

For all practical purposes, you should begin by adjusting all your cables so that the mast is erect in every direction and straight. I start by adjusting the forestay and backstay first, so that the mast is plumb fore-and-aft. I adjust those two stays hand-tight, just enough to get the slack out of them. You'll snug them down later. I use a carpenter's bubble level on the mast to determine if it's plumb. It doesn't have to be exact, because you'll change this adjustment later.

Next, adjust the upper shrouds so that the mast is erect laterally. The best way to measure it is to touch the shackle on the end of your jib halyard to the upper shroud chainplate on each side of the boat.

Now that the mast is erect, both fore-and-aft and laterally, you need to adjust the four lower stays so that the mast is straight, i.e. in column. All you need do is hand tighten each of the four lower stays enough to take the slack out of them. To determine if it's in column, lie on your back at the base of the mast and sight up it. Adjust each of the four lower stays as needed.

You're almost done. Now you just have to adjust the mast's rake and then adjust the tension of all the shrouds and stays.

Mast rake is the angle at which a mast slopes aft from vertical. The amount of mast rake adjusts the amount of the boat's weather helm. Increasing the rake increases weather helm. Reducing the rake reduces weather helm. The boat should have some minimal weather helm, so that, if you let go of the tiller, the boat will head into the wind and stop. However, weather helm creates drag, so for good sailing performance you want to minimize it.

The C25 owner's manuals do not say that the mast should be raked at all. They both say the mast should be "perpendicular." I suggest you rake the mast aft about two inches, then sail the boat in 10-12 kts of wind and, based on how the tiller pressure feels, increase or decrease the rake to your liking. The general goal should be to minimize weather helm.

To rake the mast aft, you need to slightly loosen the forestay and the forward lowers. When you loosen them, you need to tighten the backstay
and the aft lowers. You can use the main halyard as a plumb bob to measure two inches.

Finally, it's time to adjust the tensions of the shrouds and stays. Before we start, you should know that steel cable stretches very slightly, and the longer the cable, the more it stretches. The forestay, backstay and upper shrouds are longer than the four lower stays, so they'll need to be a wee bit tighter than the lowers.

Your goal is to preserve the adjustments that you made before, while increasing the tension. These adjustments need to be done methodically. Hand-tighten any cables to eliminate any slack in them. Sight up the mast again to be sure it's still in column.

Now, using the appropriate tools, begin tightening the four lowers alternately, by an equal number of turns on each side. Count the number of turns. Next, tighten the upper shrouds alternately, by an equal number of turns on each side. Finally, tighten the forestay and
backstay alternately, by an equal number of turns. Generally, the tensions should be enough so that the rig won't slap back and forth loosely in a seaway. The owner's manuals say the tension on the forestay should be such that the stay will deflect about 1/2" with 50 lbs pressure. If you don't know what that is, just guesstimate it. The way to finally determine if the tensions are correct is to tack the boat, closehauled, back and forth in 10-12 kts. There should only be very slight, almost imperceptible, forestay sag. On a tack, the lee shrouds should not sway loosely. They should just relax slightly.

You want the rig to be stabilized, so it doesn't flop back and forth, but you don't want everything overly tight, which might damage the attachments. The goal is to get everything just right.

This sounds complicated, but you can do it if you follow this procedure step-by-step. After you feel comfortable with the process, you'll be able to tune your rig in less than a half hour, and the boat will perform the way the designer intended.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/29/2022 12:56:08

keats
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Response Posted - 01/30/2022 : 07:13:10

This is priceless Steve. I can't wait to get it done.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

keats
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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 : 08:15:22

Just a final question, Steve, if you don't mind.

What condition should my split, adjustable backstay be in when tuning? I assume not fully tight, but should it be on at all or completely loose?

tia

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 : 10:01:34

quote:
Originally posted by keats
[br
What condition should my split, adjustable backstay be in when tuning? I assume not fully tight, but should it be on at all or completely loose?

You need to understand how a backstay adjuster works on a C25.

First, disregard almost everything you've read about backstay adjusters. Almost everything I have read pertains to fractional rigs, not masthead rigs like the C25. The two rig types work differently, and are tuned differently. There are probably articles somewhere on tuning a masthead rig with a backstay adjuster, but I've not found one.

The articles all tell you that a backstay adjuster on a fractional rig bends the mast, which pulls the sailcloth in the middle of the sail forward, and that lets the boat point a little higher in stronger winds by flattening the middle part of the sail, which depowers the sail. None of that applies to a masthead rig.

A backstay adjuster on a masthead rig works completely differently. It doesn't bend the mast and it doesn't help the boat point significantly higher to windward. What it really does is it lets you ease off the tension on the backstay. That creates a great deal of sag in the forestay. When you're sailing off the wind or downwind or in light air, it powers up the sails and increases your speed off the wind.

When you tune the rig on a masthead rig boat with a backstay adjuster, you begin by setting the backstay adjuster as if it is fully tensioned. Then you tune the rig in the same way you would tune a rig with a fixed backstay, but you must leave the aft lowers a bit loose. Then, when you ease the backstay adjuster, the rig will tilt forward, causing lots of forestay sag. In essence, the rig will be tuned so that, when the adjuster is fully tensioned, the rig will be perfectly tuned for sailing closehauled in strong winds. When you're done tuning, mark the position of the backstay adjuster with rigging tape, so you can reproduce that setting exactly.

I think of the backstay adjuster as a very quick way to power up or to depower the rig, as needed. In light air, I'll ease it just a wee bit to power up the rig when sailing closehauled. I might also ease it when reaching to windward in moderate winds. But, whenever I round a windward mark to sail deep downwind with white sails, I almost always ease the backstay adjuster way off, so much that the forestay has a moderate catenary curve. When you turn back to windward, you have to remember to tension the backstay again.

One caution. With a masthead rig, there's no benefit to be gained by overtensioning the backstay adjuster. It won't make the boat point higher to windward, and it can damage the boat structurally.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

keats
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Response Posted - 02/03/2022 : 14:19:28

Thanks so much, that's all excellent information.

Tim Keating
1985 C-25 TR/FK #4940
Midsummer
Lake Don Pedro, CA

CC83
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Response Posted - 03/10/2022 : 21:30:22

Lots of really great info, thanks for all the replies!

If anyone is curious, I ended up cutting up the busted rudder to make it fit in my trash can. I took a picture of the inside structure, which is pretty interesting with solid epoxy only at the leading and trailing edges. Everywhere else is just a shell. https://link.shutterfly.com/iLbF6HmIiob

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/11/2022 : 06:40:42

Those photos are very informative. The Ruddercraft rudder appears to be structurally less complicated than other C25 rudders. If it wasn't still under warranty, I think it might be a good candidate for a home repair, cutting and grinding around the damaged area and rebuilding it with layers of cloth and resin.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 03/11/2022 : 10:31:23

That picture is more than just informative; what it shows is disgraceful! There's no internal support at the aft bolts through the pintle straps. If someone tightens those bolts too much they put excessive stress on the sides of the rudder shell, which could result in cracking or collapse later.

This should be sent to Catalina Direct, so they can see what they're selling. They might want to initiate a "conversation" with Ruddercraft.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2022 : 23:25:38

I guess we're looking at their new "fiberglass beam" (?) around a 1x1 untreated white pine stick (that they don't talk about). What happened to their stainless steel grid system that once replaced the foam core?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

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