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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Wing Keel Sailing Ideas

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RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/24/2005 : 12:01:57

We were out in some moderate to high puffy winds this weekend.
The Boat quickly became overpowered much more so than other boats I have sailed. We could let out the Main Sheet extremely and continue but eventually put in the first reef. The Main drives the boat and the Jib although on a Furler is quite small. Has anyone mastered some techniques to combat this tenderness?

Thanks.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2005 : 14:05:03

Roger,

Chris offers good thoughts...adding to them.

The 250 can suffer weather helm and rounding up even under jib alone... so the problem of boat balance is beyond the sailplan balance. The weather helm that leads to control issues is then much more a heeling thing that a sailplan issue. To keep from heeling, throttleing is the issue. Disecting the throttle we have<ul><li>mainsheet</li><li>traveler</li><li>reefing points</li><li>outhaul </li><li>downhaul or halyard</li></ul>all of which play a part.

Working back up the list, the outhaul and downhaul set the power of the sail. A sail with greater draft offers more power so to reduce power, the draft is reduced by flatenning the sail by firming up outhaul and downhaul. Neither of these can be accomplished well under loads so luff up to do so.

Reefing offers the most significant power reduction as it reduces the amount of sail including the lower section which has the greater draft and it lowers and thus reduces the lever arm of the sailplan. Every c250 owner should have both reef points rigged for easy operation and show no hesitancy to use them.

The traveler changes the angle of the sail to the wind, especially the lower segment that can't be changed by easing the main. Easing the traveler down while often serving to trim a sail to a course can reduce the power of the main when it is too high.

The mainsheet should be eased to twist off the top of main and reduce power aloft, and of course the vang should not be hardened for weathering.

Not included in the list is the jib traveler or car track. Not sure they are called travelers on monohulls but we did on catamarans. The car is moved aft to twist off and reduce power aloft in the jib. A very effective power reduction and usually always the first reduction by me is the jib furler because it serves to both reduce the canvass slightly but the process also artifically moves the jib cars aft with the reduction of sail so as to twist off the jib. If the jib is reduce more than a couple of turns, then the cars will need repositioned forward which means going forward unless twings are used. For this reason, after two turns of headsail reef, my next reefing is done to the main, either a single or double. If the main is doubled and more reduction of sail is needed then I roll in the jib and go under main alone with the following exception.

If running to a quartering sea, a main alone will cause the boat to wallor as the main yaws the boat while the rudder experiences temporary stalls when the sea runs under... better in that condition to drop the main and run under jib only but keeping in mind the need not to overpower the headstay. It is very possible that the boat will easily be driven to hull speed and that the headstay will have to suffer all the overload beyond that power exhausted in reaching hull speed. That overload could cause a failure of the headstay so keep headsail reefed something less than hull speed... 5.5 knots I think is reasonable.

Also not mentioned yet is the rig. A loose rig powers up the sails, especially the jib on a 250. A 250 will experience five degrees of heel difference between a hard and a soft rig. With the modified B&R rig of the 250, a backstay tensioner if having any affect on the main, it will be to power it up and so isn't often rigged so the 250 usually doesn't have any on the fly rig tuning. In a breese, the rig should be tight. If I were racing however on a light air day, you can bet that I'd have the rig quite loose.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2005 : 15:38:21

Arlyn,
the last time we were out in Joint Decision, we reefed to the first cringle, but it was a messy affair.
Is there any really clear instructions on effectivly and nicely, reefing the main. I'm not sure but I don't think the reefing lines are rigged correctly at present. So a nice diagram of the best main reefing setup would be really handy.

We're still getting used to it.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2005 : 20:57:22

Paul, there should be a reefing diagram in the boat manual. I think there is an online manual on this web site.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of single line reefing, especially the Catalina settup on the c250.

Take a look at this link
[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/reefing.html"]Reefing ideas[/url]

You will see that I've done away with the single line reefing and have both reef points set up for double line.

Another thing that will help the reefing is to loose foot the main. Doing so will provide improved sail shaping with the added bonus of providing a handrail while on the coach roof doing reefing chores.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2005 : 23:55:25

Paul, here is a thread that discusses the single line reefing problem and some fixes for it. I use the single line reefing set up, but with modifications that allow me to put it in or take it out on the fly without having to luff up the boat.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7795

By the way, I always leave the dock with the first reef in and you run out of rudder at 32 degrees of heel with all sail up and in tight if you do nothing to the sailplan.

Edited by - frog0911 on 07/25/2005 00:00:56

RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2005 : 08:15:01

Arlyn, thanks for the information. I needed to be reminded that this tendency is a heeling function. This is my first year with the C250WK and I am still getting used to it. One of my prior boats was a Hunter 27 which was powered by the 150 Jib. Reducing the Head Sail was usually sufficient. The large full battened Main drives the C250 and that takes a bit more tweaking. I only have single line reefing but will work on putting in a double line. Looking at your double line system it requires you to go forward to the Mast. I mostly single hand and would rather stay in the Cockpit. Does anyone have a good design for double line reefing led to the cockpit? I could put in a Harken system on the port side of the boom for the top reef and leave the current one as is for the lower. Lines, lines everywhere!

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2005 : 08:54:23

Jerry, thanks for the link.
having read more on the subject now I can see the general concepts.

While we're crusing this week (Thurs-Tuesday) I'll take the time figure it out and what I need to add.

Q... Does having the fwd reefing lines on the stbd side of the mast cause the boom to be reluctant when broad reaching or running when the boom is out to port, or is the tension on the reefing lines insignificant at that point? (ie. it would appear that there would be less reefing line tension when the boom is over to stbd compared to when it is over to port.)

Edited by - on

frog0911
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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2005 : 10:12:06

Paul, I did not change anything with the Catalina reefing system accept to add the blocks on the port side and the rings to attach them through the reefing cringles. The forward reef remains on the port side. I have not noticed any difference in boom movement when reefed and boom swing is required. It maybe that the line has enough stretch in it to abate any throttling of boom movement, but if there is, I sure can't see or feel any difference.

Edited by - on

tbader
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2005 : 17:42:27

I don't have the knowledge of sail trim to allow me to fine tune my rig as effectively as Arlyn suggests, but, like Roger, I am surprised at how frequently I have to reef my main (compared to my Cal 20 sailed in the same conditions). Reefing early and often -- and employing the traveler which the Cal didn't have -- has worked well for me.

I've never completely understood the concept of "tenderness" in a boat. It seems to me that it is somewhat dependent on your own perspective, your expectations for the boat and your goals for a particular outing (ie: racing v. cruising). I view the frequent need to reef the main as giving me great flexibility in the sail plan; moderate to heavy winds: reefed main alone; lighter winds: more sail up to full main and full 135. Is the need to reef a sign of tenderness or is the ability to sail well regardless of the amount of canvas a nice attribute that makes for a flexible cruiser? Beats me. But I am impressed that I can get the boat to sail well in all of the conditions that I encounter on an inland river.

Regardless, the single-line reefing system on the 250 is awful. Since I for one find it necessary to reef often I wish that Catalina had done a better job or that I could find the time to make Arlyn's mod to a double line system.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 09:05:36

I find I need to use the second reef around 20 kts on my wing keel to keep the admiral happy. I have both reefs set up for single line reefing with the blocks and rings. Both are run to the starbord side, down to the mast base, thru a deck organizer to a set of spinlock clutches. I find I can do 4.x to 5.1 kts with just the main double reefed in 23 kts of wind and sail quite flat.

Edited by - on

RSHOOTER
Navigator

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101 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 15:58:04

Frank, that sounds like the ticket. Any chance for more pictures? I'm thinking of leaving the Catalina first reef setup in place but adding the ring and blocks to the Cringles. The second reef I need to devise an in cockpit method. Am looking at the Harken Reefing Kit but may try to simplify. I single hand and I need a simple but effective system. Thanks.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2005 : 10:55:05

My 1988 C25 TR came with a single, two-line reef in the main. Since I single-hand and prefer reefing from the cockpit, I have since changed this to two single-line reefing systems. Both reefing lines are led forward on the port side of the boom using two single cheek blocks at the boom end, a double cheek block at the mast end of the boom, a double block at the mast base, a deck organizer, and finally a double clutch to secure the reef. I use 1/4" line in the system. The clutch is mounted next to my main halyard clutch which allows me to release the main and haul in on the reef line at the same time. With this system I can reef the main with little or no effort in 1 to 2 minutes depending on conditions. It has not failed me thus far.

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reuben
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202 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2005 : 17:12:47

In this our second season with the C250 we've learned much more about the boat's capabilities & limits in higher winds. Now set up with the second reef point, it's the rare day we can't go out and have an enjoyable sail, though in winds of 25 mph or more this "sail her upright" idea is as hard to grasp as the Holy Grail. No one would be happier to sail upright in a gale but so far the best I can do is pinch up to the wind with a smidge of jib showing and not lose hold of that precious mainsheet. Also when it is gusting to 40 as it was last Thursday I feel little (I won't say <i>no</i>) shame in using the iron genny to plow for safe harbor. Heavy days sailing alongside my brother-in-law's '78 Hunter 25 (say what you like) have taught me to admit that the 250 is, as noted often in this forum, a superior light air boat, especially with the spinnaker set. On such days or in moderate winds, the 250 points better and gets there faster. But when it howls, and the rigging shrieks like a haunted attic, and the chop looks like the stairs leading to that attic, the old Hunter with its little main and its heavier keel eats my lunch. I say it with chagrin, and maybe I'm missing something; but I suspect what's actually missing is about 400 pounds of lead keel.

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