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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

C250 redesign?

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Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/14/2005 : 00:40:22

I wonder if Catalina will redesign the C250 anytime soon...

I say this because:
The C25 was produced from 1977 - 1990 = 13 years
The C250 produced from 1994 to present = 11 years

I dont say this because I think the C250 design is outdated are anything, just wondering if any changes need to be made to keep ahead of the competition. Keep in mind Hunter has a new 25 model this year.

Anyone know if there is there something new in the works from Catalina? C2500 anyone?

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - Capt. Kurt on 07/14/2005 00:41:24

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 08:15:17

From some of the pics on the forum, I'm sure that there have been 'minor' mods to the C250 in the 11 years. The rudder seems to have been modified, I'm sure the interior has been upgraded.

We love Joint Decision, and are really getting value and pleasure from it (more as we figure out the most energy (ours) efficient way of rigging the boat and pulling it on shallow ramps.)

We already have a wish list: (We have already started to address some of these things.)
Raise the height of the fuel locker behind the wheel (I'm guessing that it was designed to handle the default setup of a tiller.) (We're looking for a flatish cooler to put on top.

Venting ports in the aft berth would be great

A winch in place of the keel hauler rope.

A folddown table on the front of the pedestal guard.

The backstay connected to the stbd side outside of the observation seat so that it would not interfere with using the swim ladder or raising/lowering the engine.

Some things that surprised us.... The strength of the hull and deck, when I installed the GPS on the pedestal, had to drill through the cockpit deck, it must be more than 2" thick. We had to back away unexpectedly when a power boat was ignorning us as we docked and we nudged a concreate pileing with the stbd oberservation seat rail, minor scratch but not a dent!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 09:21:00

Anyones guess.

As can be demonstrated by the numbers, the 250 has not been even close to the producer compared to the c25. With the amount of used boats on the market, new sales are harder to come by. Seemingly, disposable income to buy new boats is also lower which further adds to the attraction for used. Fiberglass durability has likely played a role as has been a somewhat limited acceptance of modern design lines.

Frank Butler did offer a few years ago that it had a motor sailor on the boards but offered no details if it was meant to compete against the Mac 26X or even what length it was. Catalina seems to be quite busy with the mid and larger boats.

Gerry Douglas designed the 250 and with he increasingly at the helm, his baby may be extended as long as a production line seems viable, one could wonder what those numbers would be.

The first year of production saw 200 produced but after those hit the dealers lots and didn't sell well, things quickly slowed to less than 100 per year.

Perhaps one area that this thread could cover is, what design changes would we reccomend for a new design. That was done some time back in the main forum and there were quite a number of suggestions to reproduce the C25. Clearly in my mind however are some design changes between the 25 and 250 that are too valuable to give up. The open transom and transom motor well are two, no exterior wood is another.

Changes I'd like to see are trading the upper shrouds for diamond stays and possibly going fractional rig. This would allow going with a backstay tensioner which is sorely missed on the 250. An alternative would be either a mast jack or headstay tensioner. By getting rid of the upper shrouds, the lowers could be positioned more aft to solve the jib sheet fouling problem running a 135. I'd retain the backstay however for the single reason of being able to adjust the rig on the fly.

I'd also like to see dual asymmetrical skegs to counter the yaw effects of heeling. The rudder could then assume a more normal size for this boat.

Perhaps one of the harder questions for me is whether to go back to side decks and I think I'd have to say yes. While I've had no problem going onto the coach roof for reefing, going forward of the mast down the forward cabin slope has been treacherous with several busted butts. The storage afforded behind the cabin seats with a side deck design would be a reasonable trade. With side decks... those unsightly double ended midship stanchions could be done away with.

The big table in the cabin would go away in trade for a leafed table (preferably a top leafed design with fiddles). I'm thinking that even with side decks with five inches of cuddy storage behind the seat backs, that the center table design could stay by using the leafed table. I'd retain the ability to move the table to the cockpit.

I'd hope for a way to ventilate the aft berth.

I'd examine the feasability of a stubb keel center boarder with some ratio of weight between the stubb and the center board. Hopefully a weighted center board could be employed of around 700 lbs below the pivot with a balancing section above. If this raised the trailer height, I'd lengthen the swim ladder accordingly so that it continues to provide easy access from the ground.

I'd still want a wheel but would want open wire steering cables.

Sound off what you'd like to see and maybe I will incorporate into the Mainsheet tech comments where Catalina can hear your thoughts.

Edited by - on

simonhayes
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 12:09:27

WRT Suggestions...I have only had my WK a few months but I could offer the following top 3 ....

1. Standing rigging. Totally agree with the standing rigging redesign to allow the shrouds to be moved aft to avoid the 135 fowling problems. I also would really like to be able to harden the rig with an adjustable backstay. This would be top of the list and wouldn't seem to me to too hard.

2. WK Trim & ballast. I really think the trim of the WK needs looking at. Since everyone puts a motors on the stern and a lot of customers want to have wheel steering, Catalina needs to look how to put more ballast forward to ensure that the trim is right with those assumptions. This would save everyone putting 100s of pounds of sand in the v berth

3. Reefing system . Everyone who buys one of these seems to need to modify this since the single line system just doesn't work well enough. I would advocate a double line system led aft to the cockpit as standard

my $0.02c

- Simon

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 12:32:39

A couple small things that come to mind for improvements are:

1. Larger guage eletrical wiring, and improved breaker panel. (Each switch with its own breaker/fuse)
2. Smaller cabin table (or fold out leaf design)
3. Coaming winches
4. Better way of securing toping lift (have had it come loose with cover on and boom fell)
5. Use of that simulated teak wood in cockpit

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 17:42:30

I agree on the aft berth ventilation and electrical upgrades here’s a few more thoughts to ponder.

1.How about some drains in cockpit lockers.
2.Replace the plywood bilge board with real wood (something that don’t warp)so it wont rock when you walk on it.
3.Brake upgrade on the trailer, Brakes on both axles.
4.Include a standard launching wheel setup on the WK trailers.
5.A drain on the drinking water tank to assist in cleaning.
6.Handles on that slippery companionway board.
7.How many of you have hit your heads on those cabin spot lights

8.Ports that open in the cabin area.
9.My wife hates the front hatch support.

Edited by - on

Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 19:58:38

I thought of another minor (ok very minor) annoyance. Ever notice that the CDI jack line interferes with the anchor locker?

Good ones Tom, especially #4 and #6.

Kurt

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 21:59:14

The CDI jack line getting snagged everytime you open or close the anchor locker is a simple yet annoying thing. It should be an easy thing to fix. I'm checking mine out this weekend and will report back.

My to-do-list probably indicates features that would be nice in a redesign. (not that I would be in the market for one as Joint Decision is less than two months old)

Second battery.
Overhead fans on the mast support cross beam.
Water pump to drain the tank (with diverter valve for sea rinse).
Handle on the companionway 'door' (what is that thing called?)
Raising the drivers seat about 8" (I'm designing a fiberglass extension that will fit between the box and the lid. That way I can use the exisiting hinges to attach the extension, and put new hinges to reattach the lid to the extension. )
Slats to stretch between the fwd end of the cabin port and stbd lockers to support two new cussions for making the fwd berth longer.
Grating floor (duck boards) for both port and stbd cabin lockers, although right now we are using some milk crates as retainers for stored items. Work pretty well, just don't put anything that can slip between the holes in the crates, if it gets that far it will most likely end up lost in the bilge.
A retaining clip for the bilge hose in the sump under the fwd end of the aft berth so that the bilge pump gets out most of any water in there.
The 5th wheel for launching on shallow ramps would be great.
I think I already mentioned replacing the backstay bottle screw with a block-n-tackle.

I'm guessing that the honey-do-list shortens with time (then the things-to-fix probably grows.)

Edited by - on

Auburn80
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2005 : 00:43:27

As a prospective buyer; I'd like to see:
Side Decks;
Haven't sailed one yet but the rigging/sheet arrangement looks to need some attention, both to manage larger headsails and to route sheets to coaming winches;
From the pictures; a fold-down table would be a benefit.
Maybe by the time Catalina introduces a next gen. 25, I'll have saved enough to get one ;-)

Edited by - on

raulpou
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144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2006 : 15:42:07

A couple of upgrades would be:

A hard link steering system as opposed to wires. I love the new hunter's steering system, seems bulletproof.
A beaching rudder, at least for water ballast boats.
A table that can be used inside and outside the cabin.
Catbird seats that are angled and out of the way! I love the Catbird seats but when they are angled, the amount of room increases tremendously.
A mast raising system that allows you to raise and lower without having to use the trailer. Great for passing those pesky bridges.

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2006 : 23:29:39

Surprised no mention's been made of the location of the battery. It's an awkward, frustrating pain to check the acid levels and add water. Seems it would be a huge improvement to have the battery(s) stored forward of the water tank under the V berth, and have power connectors for the electric start engine where the battery is now. Or better yet, an aft exterior female power connection and a male adaptor for the engine power cord.
I guess I could make this a mod myself, but since I'm an electrical idiot, haven't a clue how to install and run the wires.
Battery re-location a MAJOR re-design priority for me.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 11:50:12

Another change that I'd want is helm not given to gross increases in weather helm with heeling. While I understand that heeling is slow, puffs push a boat over and while she should be prone to coming up rather than pushed over on her side, she should not be given to rounding up at 30 degrees or less.

I believe this can be accomplished easily and infact could be easily adapted to the C250. Someday I hope to find a round tuit and build a pair of asymmetrical fins for aft on the 250. Their function would be simple... they would provide increased lateral resistance aft and as the boat heeled, the windward fin would rise out of the water leaving the remaining immersed fin's lifting effort uncanceled. That effort would counter weather helm.

If I'm correct, the increased wetted surface of the fins could be partially mitigatd by reduced rudder requirements.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 20:35:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 ...Someday I hope to find a round tuit and build a pair of asymmetrical fins for aft on the 250. Their function would be simple... they would provide increased lateral resistance aft and as the boat heeled, the windward fin would rise out of the water leaving the remaining immersed fin's lifting effort uncanceled.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't they call your idea the Mac26?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 20:42:15

Hey Don,

Not!

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 22:10:20

Does it make any sence that the mac has fifty horses on it's back?

Paul

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/04/2006 : 22:22:52

That's so it can keep up with the Catalina's.

Edited by - on

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