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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

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Robby
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/31/2005 : 16:01:41

A couple questions:
1. Can 1 person step and unstep the mast for trailering?
2. Some owners have complained about excessice weather helm. Is
this still an issue?
Thanks.
Robby

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 16:41:09

I raised my mast myself last year for the first time. I have a C25 tall rig. I used a 2x4x10 foot gin pole. It worked great although prep took awhile longer than with my normal two person crew of helpers.

Weather helm is a function of several things, but primarily mast rake. It is not built into the boat. In a nutshell, the more mast rake, the more weather helm. I believe that C25 owners adjust the mast for a 2-4 inch rake.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 18:04:11

hey al
have you raised your mast differantly than what we've been seeing on the site?

if so, how about some photos
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry near carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 20:12:01

Some of our members are now using an A-frame constructed of conduit. Still others have stablized the A-frame, mounted a winch on one leg and crank the mast up with it. I used a single 2x4x10 piece of pine. The bottom has a round cut-out to fit on the mast. I added an 8 penny galvanized finishing nail to the cut out and a corresponding hole at the bottom of the mast so the 2x4 doesn't kick out under load. It's "clamped" onto the mast with "industrial grade" velcro. I have also added a stay system which uses 3' of 1/4" line between each lower shroud chain plate with a stainless ring on the line. I believe I got the plan from a post in Tech Tips several years ago. Attached to the ring are stays which attach to the gin pole and the mast (as high as I can reach when the mast is up. From there I attach the jib halyard to the stern side of the pole and my main sheet block and tackle to the front side. The sheet is then run to a pimary winch. I stood on the weather deck to crank the mast up so I could be out of the way if fell. It went up very nicely. I even stopped cranking one or two times to insure my turnbuckles were not binding. It was so impressive that a small crowd gathered arround to watch. They were quite impressed.

Eventually I'll switch to the A-frame, but for now this works fine.

I'd like to post some photos but I don't have any. I'm usually in such a hurry to get launched that I don't take the time. If you want clarification on the process, ask. I may be able to email you some drawings as well.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - aeckhart on 01/31/2005 20:16:20

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 20:20:40

Welcome Robby
My 250 came with a mast raising system built on the trailer. It uses the trailer winch and "baby Stays" to stabilize the mast. It just cranks right up. I can raise it myself no problems.

Edited by - on

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 20:53:37

Robby
One person can put up the mast. You will need either a trailer or a boat based system to do it. It takes about 1-½ hours to get the boat ready from trailer mode to ready to leave the dock if only one person is doing it. Here is a post with some pictures of the trailer-based system. http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6352 There are post on the trailer based system also.
As for the weather helm that is dependent on which boat (WB or WK) and which rudder (1st, 2nd or 3rd generation) fixed or beaching rudder you have. Some have more weather helm than others do. There have been many posts on this subject just do a search on rudders.

Edited by - on

Robby
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 01:07:09

Thanks to all.
Robby

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 12:48:17

Hi, it's not over yet. Hope my 2 cents is ok. Have raised and lowered my mast for over 25 years with a bridle and gin pole and the main sheet. The deal was I could get the boat if I could handle it by myself. Royce ideas and practical experience worked. Wanted to be able to do the operation with what was on the boat as we cruise for over a month at a time in the San Juans. Have since rigged two other C25s using the boom as the gin pole and the forward halyard and a mast crutch. Have seen two C25's with dented stern pulpits because of using a halyard. Can lower mast anywhere if needed instead of climbing. Getting ready to start the second 25 this season with a new Honda with remote. Good sailing. Jim Sweet

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 18:08:23

Robby, they got it right... the c250 is easy for one person to setup and the water ballast (don't know about the wing) is easy for one person to launch... I never get my feet wet and the courtesy dock is half way out the cove.

Regarding weather helm, Al's comments on weather helm are generally true but there is more to the issue on the c250. Mast rake is not the chief problem of what can be serious weather helm that can lead to a roundup.

We know this is true because the 250 (with inadequate rudder to hold it) can experience round ups under headsail only so its not aft center of effort that is the cause.

The good news is we now understand well what is happening and the steps to arrest it... The solutions are multi faceted.

<ul><li>an oversized rudder</li><li>a balanced rudder or increased leverage of a good wheel steering system to deal with the torque of the larger rudder</li><li>good reefing discipline to keep boat flatter</li><li>attention to fore and aft boat balance</li><li>raking the center board aft some on the water ballast</li><li>and of course, mast rake and sail balance as always</li></ul>

It is the effects of heeling, not mast rake that have the greatest influence on c250 weather helm and rounding up problems. In a nut shell, it is the hull form design (low width to length ratio, low rocker and square bilges chosen to make interior ballast possible).

Fuller thoughts on why the hull form causes excessive weather helm and round ups are at

[url="http://stewartfam.net/arlyn/cause_of_weather_helm.html"]weather helm and the 250[/url]

Edited by - on

Robby
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 23:32:17

Thanks Jim and Arlyn. Arlyn I read your treatise on weather helm (are you a naval architect?) and understand that hull shape is a major (but not the only) factor. Which leads to my next question: Are weather helm and unintentional rounding up characteristic of all catalinas and is it more a problem with the 250 WK compared to the WB since my understanding is that the WK has more freeboard and therefore a different wetted hull shape?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2005 : 00:43:31

Robby, not a naval architect... and by going to the page via a url rather than the menu screen for it would miss my disclaimer that the comments are only one man's opinion and lean on the theoretical.

Nonetheless, I believe I'm on target and that a major CLR shift occurs for some designs (remember CLR is not just lateral resistance but has been redefined as the sum of all hull forces).

I think the c250 is more suceptable to this than the c25 but that many hull forms designed for cruising comfort suffer.

Which between the 250 wing and center board would suffer the greatest? I don't know for sure as I've not sailed both. First, here is what we know. In '97, Catalina evidently felt that the wing keel ought to be able to handle a tall rig and 150 genoa based on the fact that its righting arm with the ballast in a wing keel much lower than the internal ballast of the center board and a hull form with extra righting force designed in ought to be stiff enough to handle them. They were suprized and stopped producing the tall rig and offering the 150 genoa.

Also, following the sailing reports they placed a stopper block on the center board to rake it aft some as reports from the field said it helped greatly.

In '96, they had recalled the original rudder and opted for one with considerably more control... to hold the boat from rounding up. They issued sailing instructions to reef early and keep heel from becoming excessive.

The 2nd rudder while able to hold the boat from rounding up, required greater amounts of effort at the helm so a third balanced was designed with the two boats receiving two differing itterations, the wing a longer and the center board a shorter. The difference was more than the water line amount and we don't know why because Catalina is close to the cuff on lots of issues. Did they think the wing keel needed more rudder than the water ballast or did the water ballast get slighted rudder to make it easier to launch without having to remove the rudder?

There have been precious few reports of those who have sailed both boats... in fact, the only one that I know who has commented is Derek Crawford who owns a C25 but has sailed on both the 250 versions. He things the center board feels stiffer than the wing... but we know that the wing is considerably faster than the center board... but with less wetted surface and drag, plus the ability to carry more sail, that stands to reason.

Not a comparison between the two 250s but between the water ballast and the C25 versions is that the c250 water ballast has a smoother ride in a seaway. Whether this is because of less rocker, squarer bilges or the weight mass of the water ballast being less focused at a center location (pivoting point)... is conjecture. I've not heard comments praising the wing keel for its ride so am thinking it is more a function of the spread out ballast than it is rocker or squareness of the bilges.

Edited by - on

Robby
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2005 : 01:33:56

Thanks Arlyn. I know much more now.
Robby

Edited by - on

Alan Therrien
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2005 : 18:13:05

I am considering raising and lowering my own mast next season. I have the wing keel model, and I trailer the boat on a custom made Triad trailer. The trailer has a very sturdy vertical ladder welded to the frame. I thought I might be able to attach a pole to the vertical ladder. Attach a heavy block to the top of the pole and a winch to the bottom. Then just attach a sling around the mast above the spreaders, clip the winch line to the sling, and winch up the mast. After reading the posts on this subject, I am curious to know what "baby stays" are and why they are needed for mast raising with a single pole. Is it because the gin pole is subject to lateral movement that a trailer mounted pole is not? I thought the shrouds would prevent unwanted movement from side to side. What am I missing?

I have no experience in this area, and have never seen anyone use a mast raising system before. Does anyone offer a video for this? All comments and suggestions are welcome.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2005 : 19:46:46

Alan, the baby stays keep the mast from going sideways during the initial part of the raise and are quite important. Those who use an A frame which has the gin pole further aft than the bow roller, claim that the baby stays are not necessary as long as the boat is sitting level.

If I were using a forward of the stem gin pole, I think I'd want the baby stays.

If you don't all ready have a gin pole, instead of securing it to the trailer, consider the standing A frame and then the baby stays are not needed as long as the boat is level sideways. Here is a link to the [url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/mrs.html"]Standing A Frame Gin Pole[/url].

Edited by - on

Robby
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2005 : 14:56:48

Arlyn-
I've been following your comments with interest. With the large rudder (to prevent weather helm and roundups) can you use a tiller, or do you need a wheel? Thanks.
Rob

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2005 : 18:56:23

Rob, the third generation rudder is well balanced which means that much of the effort needed is produced by the rudder itself so either tiller or wheel should not require excessive helm effort.

The 2nd generation rudder however is not balanced and it can demand a great deal of effort and did so also with the wheel on the 250 because of the lack of a good wheel to rudder ratio for the wheel design used on the 250.

Generally larger boats use a wheel because of the loads and smaller boats use a rudder because of simplicity. The choice on a twenty-five footer will somewhat depend upon what the boat is used for and the preferences and needs of the skipper and crew. IMHO, a boat that is cruised (the 250 is a capable coastal cruiser) can benefit from a wheel because it excercises the crew, giving them standing time which goes a long way towards making the cruise and life aboard more pleasant.

There is a fair list of pros n cons and here is a short treatise on the subject.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/wheelornot.html"]Wheel Steering or Not?[/url]

Edited by - on

Robby
Deckhand

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14 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2005 : 23:38:38

Thanks once more, Arlyn.
Rob

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