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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Tuning Standing Rigging

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JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/25/2005 : 17:33:03

I have another neubie question to pose to this Forum.

My boat (a 250) is about 9 months old, and I am wondering if it is time to tune the rigging? I have noticed on a starboard tack with about a 12-15 knot breeze that the lower port shroud is pretty loose looking.

Is this something that I should attempt myself or can I cause damage? Are there any other pitfalls that I might inadvertently fall into if I DIY? (okay DIM)

The information I read always says that if you rotate a turnbuckle 1/4 turn on the port side, you should make sure you do the same on the starboard. I have 2 questions about this.

1. Shouldn't the shrouds first be tensioned evenly before the equi-turning requirement kicks in? The issue in my mind is that the shrouds may be a little mis-aligned with each other to begin with, so shouldn't that be corrected first?

2. A really dumb question

John
"Enchanted Becuma"
C250 '04 WK #746

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2005 : 18:34:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JJM
 I have another neubie question to pose to this Forum.

- Is there a tool to turn the turnbuckles - i.e. how do they get turned?

Then of course there is always talk about mast rake. What is optimal for a 250 standard rig, and how do we tune to it?

Thanks in advance for your guidance here guys!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Since you are asking the questions then you are apparently not comfortable with your knowledge level therefore these questions are excellent ones. First, I bought the same turnbuckles that you use. They are fine but they have a couple down sides. First I find them hard to lock in position. The collars slide down over the turnbuckles with so little clearance that I ended up using swaging wire to seize them. Next the brass turnbuckles themselves on my boat still have very sharp edges on them from their machining. That said, I use a stubby flat head screwdriver to turn them with and a 4" Crescent wrench to hold the shroud/stay stud.
As for the details of tuning a 250, that is for the other guys to tell you. Bottom line is though that you should do this so you better understand your rig and have full confidence in it.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2005 : 21:31:02

John,

When your boat was commissioned, the rigger should have set the mast in column by adjusting the uppers, then he would have adjusted the lowers for a straight mast. Probably then, whatever you do will be done equal on each side but nonetheless you can check your results.

The first step is to balance the boat fore and aft and get it near its lines. If it needs sandbags added to the bow...do so. Most wing owners are reporting 200-300 lbs to get the job done.

The first stays to adjust are the uppers. Using the mains'l halyard cleated so that the shackle just touches a chain plate, check that both sides are equal. Adjust to place the mast in column, equal measurement to both chain plates.

Next is to adjust the mast rake. Shoot for 1.5 - 3 inches. Use a weight in the mains'l halyard. If any hint of leehelm exist, move it aft.

Now set the tension on the upper shrouds. They are the stays that go through the spreader bars. They need to be quite firm, check by using two fingers and deflecting. When they can be deflected only 2-3 inches, your in the ballpark. These shrouds bear against the raked spreaders and hold the center of the mast forward... but they cannot overcome lowers which are too tight. What is wanted is a mast that has no reverse bend (aft bend in the middle).

Ideally the manual I think calls for some prebend (forward bend of the middle section) but in the past at least, this has been unachievable so tighten the uppers first and get them pretty firm so that no reverse bend exist. Make sure that the lowers during this process are always a good bit looser than the uppers. Check the two fingers test again.

The lowers should be looser than the uppers because to tighten them equally will almost certainly introduce reverse bend. What is desired is that while sailing a close reach in a moderately stiff wind, sighting up the mast will show no side bend. If the middle of the mast bends to leeward, the lowers are too loose and should be tightened equally until the mast remains straight. The easiest way to sight the mast sideways is to lie on your back and view out the forward cabin windows. Keep in mind that your playing a balancing act and don't want to introduce reverse bend with getting them too tight. You should be able to get from half again to twice as much deflection from the lowers compared to the uppers with the two finger test. If the leeward lower shows play in a stiff wind, its not a big deal but probably means the middle is not staying perfectly in column... but don't sweat it if it is only slightly loose, remember again, your trying to avoid tightening the lowers as tight as the uppers.

The back stay is the last stay to tighten, it should be firm enough that it doesn't foul the roach of the mains'l but not so tight that it hauls the mast truck aft as to do so will loosen the upper shrouds and once again, introduce reverse bend. The backstay is almost redundant on a B&R rig (rig with radical raked spreaders used to eliminate forward lowers. The C250 with a backstay and masthead rig (headstay goes to masthead) has a modified B&R rig, as true B&R rigs are fractional rigs (headstay attaches to the mast between the spreaders and mast head) and have no backstay.

Hope this gives you some guidance.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 01/25/2005 22:36:48

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2005 : 22:00:25

One other thing you might consider is a tension guage. I bought one at West and find it a big help.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2005 : 09:17:20

Steve,

Two questions: Which model of tensioner do you use? How many pounds of tension should you register on that gauge on the various rigging parts when it's tuned properly?

While "Two fingers" is probably a good estimate for tensioning, I'm more concerned about inadvertently overtightening and breaking something or blowing out a wire.

Edited by - on

Steve Raffel
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2005 : 10:35:16

I bought the Loos gauge on page 1007 of West's 2004 Master Catalog. You can get it at most marine stores. I did not buy the pro model. I believe mine is the smaller regular one.

There is no magic number to use. You need to get the tension even on both sides of the boat for the shrouds. What the gague does is give you the relative tension. They also give you numbers not to exceed for given wire diameters. Again, I really like it.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2005 : 12:27:11

Steve,

Thanks for the info. Guess I mosey over there & check it out. All our standing rigging is 3/16 wire (except the forestay) so the smaller one sounds like the way to go.

Edited by - Jeff McK on 01/26/2005 12:51:32

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2005 : 14:33:54

Jeff, Arlyn is describing the correct way to tune your rig. The only thing a loos gauge can do for you is to assure you that you have tensioned the shrouds to the optimum tension (assuming someone has determined what the optimum loos gauge tension should be for a C250 in any given wind strength). Before you use a loos gauge, you should first follow Arlyn's procedures to get the rig set up correctly, and then the loos gauge can be used as the final step to fine-tune the tension. The method that Arlyn suggests might sound like an unscientific, seat-of-the-pants method for tuning the rig, but it really isn't. He tunes the rig so that its elements perform in the way that he knows a sailing rig is supposed to perform. For example, if you tension the shrouds so that they deflect about 2-3 inches when you use the 2-finger test, then you can be assured that they aren't too tight. If they don't deflect that far, they're too tight. Another test is to put the rig under load by sailing it in winds of about 15-18 mph. If the shrouds are tensioned correctly, the leeward shroud will just relax when you're beating to windward. If it doesn't, the shrouds are probably a little too tight. If the shroud relaxes and starts to sway with the movement of the boat, then they are too loose.

If you follow Arlyn's suggestions, even without using a loos gauge, your boat will be tuned better than 90% of the boats.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2005 : 14:43:16

Steve,

Thanks for the clarification. I was planning on following Arlyn's sage advice & use the Loos gauge to final-check the calibration of my 10 thumbs so the tensions are equal P & S, and not excessive in any direction.

I'll also give my rigger a call & see what he has on file for tension settings.

Now if it will just get nice enough so I can get out to adjust & test things...40 degrees today, 22 tomorrow.

Edited by - Jeff McK on 01/26/2005 14:47:52

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2005 : 20:53:12

John, have you checked your owners manual? In my manual there is a page, 4.1.2, immediately following the section on raising the mast that describes the tuning procedure and gives basic Loos guage settings. Then page 15 provides drawings showing the mast prebend and how to measure it. If you don't have them, let me know and I will EM to you.
Good luck with your tuning.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2005 : 07:20:39

Frog,

Dang, I completely forgot about the manual. I'll check it out. Thanks

Edited by - on

JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2005 : 17:00:30

Thanks to all for your responses. I will read the manual and use Arlyn's advice to tune the rig. From everything I've read, it appears that the loos gauge is best used to final check tension after tuning (I agree here Steve and Jeff!), but not to use it exclusively.
I too will check with a rigger for any input he/she might have.

Jerry, If my manual doesn't have the information about the rigging, I will be sure to conatct you. Thanks for the offer!!

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2005 : 17:33:05

John, The best C25/250 riggers are on this forum.

Edited by - on

JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2005 : 18:55:12

Wayne,

I agree - I think the best C250 knowledge about anything can be had right here in this forum.

I am soooo thankful that all you guys have made it a point to respond to questions from those less experienced (like myself). I feel really lucky and am most appreciative.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 21:19:53

CORRECTION:

After checking the owner's manual, I found out that only the forestay is 3/16", The rest of the standing rigging is 5/32". Naturally, the Loos gauges are in two sizes and guess where the "cutoff" is for them? That's right, the smaller STOPS at 5/32, and the larger one STARTS at 3/16.

It sure would have been nice if Catalina would have made them all ONE size, but NOOOOOOOO.

There are no models in the WM catalog that covers both sizes with one device. This means if you want them both it's >$100.

Edited by - on

JJM
Navigator

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USA
170 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 21:56:00

Jeff,

Great...

Sounds like my house. It doesn't let me do what I plan for it, it only lets me do to it what it wants to let me do!

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 23:34:23

Jeff, if you have a Snapfurl, you should have received a installation instructions manual separate from your owners manual. In it is how to set up the forestay for the snapfurl. If you do that you will find the rest is not that difficult. I like my forestay a little loose so I backed it off about six turns. A good starting point is to set all as suggested in the manuals and then you can adjust form there for your sailing preferrence. I don't carry as much play in the forestay as Derek, but more than some would like. After many years in our C25 WK, sailing the C250 is a bit different, to say the least, so I am still experimenting with rigging tension and sail control. Just keep playing with it and you should be able to come up with what fits your style.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 09:57:35

Jeff,
If you want to use a loos gauge, the one for the 5/32 standing rigging would be the most useful. As others have indicated, the amount of headstay tension can vary fairly widely, depending on how you use your boat and the wind conditions, and adjusting the headstay tension for the conditions is probably as much an art as it is a science. The tension on the side stays doesn't vary nearly as much depending on wind conditions, and tension on the side stays would be more accurately set with a loos gauge.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 11:07:15

Steve & Jerry,

Thanks for the info. I've got a CDI roller on my boat, and the headstay is pretty much inaccessible because of the foil. The prebend is OK, so I think if I can get everything else balanced at the proper tension it'll be alright.

I guess this is part of "messing about in boats" they talk about.

Now if the groundhog will just cooperate tomorrow...

Edited by - on

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