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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Buying: What to look for?

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Richard F.
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/14/2004 : 02:40:29

Greetings,

I read through the last year's postings and am very grateful for the wealth and depth of information here. Thank you!

I am looking at a used '96 WB. After reading the postings, these seem to be the things to look for:

- Water ballast tank stops at the front of the aft berth (doesn't exend all the way to stern.)
- Rudder. I have to say I'm totally confused on this... I'll just do my best to see if I have a 1, 2, or 3. Sounds like upgrading to the #3WK rudder is best for what I'll be doing. I'm mostly interested in knowing if I'll have to buy a new rudder as it seems the #1 and #2 are not getting good comments.

I've sailed the WK on San Diego Bay... day rental through Seaforth. Fun to sail, wasn't super stiff. I currently sail a Mac25 swing keel (800lbs of iron keel) and it seems stiffer... but it's so hard to compare these things in reality. I've read that the WB is actually stiffer (heels and then stiffens up, as opposed to tenderness which I understand to mean propensity to heel initially). Can anyone comment on this? I plan to keep the boat in a lake in a slip, so WK seems to be recommended for that, yet would love to be able to pull the boat to do my own work, as well as occassional travel. Within the package of the 250, mostly interested in solid sailing capability WK vs WB. Any comments appreciated.

Finally, there was a reference to a topic on WB stability in "the archives". I can't get the search funtion to work on this board, wondering where those archives are located?

Thanks in advance,

-Richard

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2004 : 11:08:56

<font color="blue">... there was a reference to a topic on WB stability in "the archives". I can't get the search funtion to work on this board, wondering where those archives are located? - Richard</font id="blue">

Hi Richard,

I feel your pain ... the "search" function on the Forum and I have never gotten along.

Here are some ideas that might help.

First, try to think of a key word that might be in the subject of the thread, then search the "subject only" to see what comes up.

Second, if your search continues to "time out" before it finds what you're looking for, reset your browser to search longer.

Third, since you are looking for C-250 info, search only in the C-25O Forum.

Finally, search the archives by simply checking the box in the search form next to "archived posts." I think "current" posts go back a little over a year, and the archived posts are older than that ('not sure about the exact time cutoff).

If none of those tricks works for you, you might consider emailing a couple of C-250 WB owners directly to ask specific questions ... simply click on the member's name, then send an email to that member from his profile page. Several WB owners come to mind ... Arlyn Sewart ("Arlyn Stewart"), Suzie ("sailgal"), and Bren Peterson ("bren737") ... they are regular contributors to the Forum ... they are likely to respond to your thread anyway if they see it.

'Sorry I can't help you with your specific questions ... I sail a C-25. 'Hope that helps ... good luck!

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2004 : 11:31:21

Richard;
We purchased a 95 wb #134 four years ago, we have never regretted the decision. We had 3 different fin keel boats before this one, they may seem stiffer, but didn't sail any better, as long as you pay attention to sail trim, and reefing the boat sails well in all kinds of weather. We also sail on an inland lake (kerr in NC) and find the boat to be perfect for our needs. Like you, our boat stayes in the water most of the time, but it is great to be able to pull the boat ourselves, we have pulled it for the occassional passing huricane. Of all of the boats that we have owned, my wife likes and trusts this one the most, we sail it at least 4 times a week and always comment on what a great ride. One nice thing about shopping for this boat used, is that it has very simple systems, very little to go wrong. Some have had problems with center board cables, I'm still on my first, but have a spare on board. We are using the 3rd gen rudder, but also have the second, which works very well too. I think it's likely that any boat you look at would have a 2nd or 3rd gen rudder. One of my buddies has a gen 1 rudder on his boat and doesn't seem to have any problem with it. I did modify my third gen rudder by adding a wing to it, which greatly improved its' performance.
Best of luck with your boat hunting, sounds like a c250 would fit your needs as it did with ours.
Bill C250wb #134 Serendipity

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2004 : 16:55:03

Many water ballast 250s are regularly slipped and there have been no reports of any serious consequences for doing so.

As Bill points out, the water ballast design is known for a providing a good ride in rough chop, and I verify that to be very true.

It cannot be emphasized enough how the rudder issue affected early hull numbers such as 1996 models. The first generation had inadequate lift(control). The 2nd, had the lift needed but suffered great torque issues. The 3rd was intended to solve both of these issues but still came up a bit short on lift. The 3rd long should work ok, but will require as with the 2nd, shipping and unshipping prior to launch unless its a beaching type.

I actually prefer the 2nd generation rudder if its a beaching variety. High aspect ratio rudders like the 2nd have a better lift to drag ratio and perform very well lift wise with the shortcoming that it wasn't balanced and transmits much greater helm torque to the tiller or wheel. You did not say if the boat your looking at has wheel or tiller, if the wheel, the 2nd generation rudder along with an open wire steering conversion is an ideal match because of the much better steering ratio aforded by the open wire conversion.

If the boat is tiller with a 2nd generation and the helm torque exceeds your comfort zone, it then depends if the rudder is beaching or blade. If beaching, the rudder head can be simply modified to provide rudder balance and solve the torque issue...if blade and the torque is too great, a 3rd generation should be considered...get the longer of the two, the shorter is inadequate for any challenging conditions... like San Francisco Bay.

Stability is not much of an issue with the exception that a water ballast designed hull is given to excesses of weather helm with greater heeling angles...but that is true also for the c250 wing keel which uses the same hull form as the water ballast. Keeping the boat fairly flat by employing good reefing discipline and the use of a high lift rudder solves that problem.

Other than outlining a desire to be able to easily haul the boat, you don't say which flavor of sailing you lean towards. If its day sailing, either wing or water ballast choice is of little concern. If a cruiser and especially if you will trailer to cruising destination, the water ballast is excellent because of the great ride stability and ease of launch. If a racer, the wing keel is a better choice by far primarily because the water ballast has several hundred pounds more discplacement and thus greater drag.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2004 : 19:39:54

Richard,
I moved up from a MAC-22 to the 250 Wing Keel earlier this year. I drove from Atlanta to St Louis to get her. It trailers quite well. I pull it with a 2004 F150 4x4. As far as pulling her out to do your own work, it can be done with the WK as well. Its a little different than pulling the MAC-22! :) Also for what's its worth the WK has about 5 inches more head room than the WB and sits a little higher in the water (pluses or minuses depending on how you look at it).
Either way you go I'm sure you will enjoy the room.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2004 : 21:30:12

If you decide you really like the boat, don't forget to get it professionally surveyed before you sign the check. The surveyor prices in the Dallas area are around $14/foot. Follow the surveyor around with a notebook and take copious notes...you'll learn lots about your boat.

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2004 : 12:00:47

Richard, I bought a 2002 WB and have always kept it wet slipped. No problems....just needs occasional scrubbing, and a bottom job every few years (depends on your marine evironment). I wanted the extra draft the WB affords over the wing. Yes 5 inches of interior head room was a consideration, but I daysail more than cruise on average, and preferred the draft, and less freeboard (I don't race my boat). At anchor or in a marina for overnighting, the pop top is a snap to put on and makes up for the lack of headroom. If you intend to trailer, the wb is the way to go. Regarding the rudder, I have a 3rd, and never have any issues (yes it is a shorter rudder than the WK, whats the point of the cb draft if the rudder is going to drag in skinny water. I know you can buy the wk rudder if it is no big deal in your waters. Regarding rounding up, if it is blowing I throw a reef in and we're set.
I also have the tiller model, as this is personal preference...I simply love steering with a tiller (wheels are for cars and "big" boats...again it's a personnal thang')
Last the "snapping center cord". My advice, before you put the boat in the water upgrade the cord to the newest type which is high strength line (no longer metal cord) Catalina was issuing them as a free upgrade. I've never (knock wood

) had problems since I changed cable out.
I love my boat, and think you will be happy. Good luck, and feel free to ask questions. This association is a wonderful perk of ownership, great bunch of people. You'll never feel alone!
Good luck!

Edited by - on

Richard F.
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2004 : 20:57:15

Wow! Lots of great information, thank you.

In terms of my usage intentions, I'll be lake sailing, Austin TX area, plan on leaving it in the water
at Lake Travis. Daysailing with the kids and friends, looking forward
to a little overnight camping, and dangling for fish off the back once
in awhile. I'd like to participate in the "social" races... beer-cans,
etc. I presume there's a PHRF rating for a WB. I sail to de-stress...
if that helps describe the mode I'm in.

I'm moving from the SF Bay area... I am going to dearly miss sailing
on the bay. But I CAN'T WAIT to sail in a T-shirt, shorts, dive in
when I feel like it, not worry about my kids maxing out on hypothermia
in <30 minutes if they fall in, and...uh... looking forward to dragging kids around on
innertubes, and possibly investigate a (gasp) PWC as a reasonable
sailboat tender. That's probably an even better description of the
mode I'm in.

I like the 250 for the large cockpit, and open transom. Had lots of
fun sailing that WK in San Diego so it passed that test. Also, my wife
is very unenthusiastic about the 1980's vintage Cat30's that I've also
looked at and have seriously considered. I completely understand
why... she'd like a clean, bright, newer interior than I can't afford
on a 30.. or 320... or 36...or 360! (Foot-itis. It's for real.)

I'll take photos of my rudder and see if I can get some help
identifying what I have. I'm working a very good price on the boat...
but it won't make sense if I have to pay to upgrade all this stuff. I
don't suppose Catalina is handing out keel cables, new rudders, etc.
for free on a '96 on it's 3rd owner (or so). It's a tiller boat, I'll
sail it that way until we've bonded :-) and then plan on installing a
wheel for all the reasons that sailgal mentioned. I read through all
your info Arlyn, great resources you have there.

Thanks again,

-Richard

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