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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

New boat #761-long

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GREGG
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/04/2004 : 23:16:17

We purchased Hull #761 a 250WK at the end of July and brought her home to Montana. Prior to my purchase I had read most of the post on this forum. Almost didn't buy the boat after reading some of them. After sailing every weekend from late July to mid-September and after spending a week long vacation on the boat I thought I would tell you my thoughts. After all, it's your fault I bought the boat.

1.First off she is comfortable, below and in the cockpit. I sleep better on the boat than I do at home. Going to the cabin top under sail is not as bad as I thought it would be.

2.She sails good. Nice light air performace, fast enough for me in moderate winds, and with reefs in, easy enough to sail in heavy winds.
She can be tender if you don't reef but not as bad as some non 250wk owners would have you believe. We did get caught a couple of times in gusts of 35 to 40 MPH with full sails up (135% jib) and that was intersting. On the last sail of the season the forcast was for gusts to 40MPH. I put in the 2nd reef and went sailing, working the jib in and out as needed. I'm sure the wind never got to 40 MPH while we were out but it was gusty and the boat did handle fine, almost boring.

3.We have no weather helm. The boat is so well balanced(wheel steering) that she just about sails herself with very little input from us. Our previous boat had a tiller. On our first time out with the wheel we were over steering and when in frustration I took my hands off the wheel the boat just took over and sailed straight.

4.I have had some of the same common problems as a lot of you but I place the blame on the dealer and their lack of prep and professionalism.

Overall, we love the boat and would do it all over again. Thank you all for such a great forum.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2004 : 17:19:20

Gregg,

Welcome aboard. I hope you have continued good experiences. Like you, this forum was a huge help in deciding to buy my boat.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2004 : 23:12:58

Welcome aboard, Gregg! Let the fun begin!

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2004 : 11:53:19

Hello Greg, as a former 250 owner, I think you're on the right track. Just don't have too much fun or you'll be buying a bigger boat....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618)
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

GREGG
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2004 : 14:08:27

Oscar,
Because we would like to sneak out of Montana in the winter we will keep the 25 for awhile. I need something I can tow. Of course we could buy a 2nd boat and leave it down south. What am I thinking! By the way I think we bought our boats (25) from the same dealer.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2004 : 14:13:48

St. Louis Sailing Center.....?

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618)
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

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GREGG
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2004 : 19:33:29

YUP!

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2004 : 23:50:02

Hey Gregg,

Glad your enjoying the 250 and have a season behind you on her and a feel for her abilities.

A couple of thoughts... First, the wheel steering on the 250 does not enjoy a good steering ratio... this because of the use of flexible sheathed cables and the design limitations the use of the cables constrained.

This leaves the steering overly sensitive beause of too little steering ratio.

The other related problem to this poor ratio is that wheel torque is limited and a problem on other than a very well balanced rudder. To deal with the excess torque problems Catalina designed the 3rd generation rudder to be very well balanced, perhaps slightly overbalanced.

Most balanced rudders are designed to ensure that they are not overbalanced for two reasons.

1. If overbalanced, the rudder will oversteer. When talking airplanes, an overbalanced control will zoom which means that the control surface is not want to retain a hands free condition but will actually induce turn one way or the other. The result is a fight to keep from oversteering. You do indicate that going hands off allows the boat to track better, which leaves me thinking that if the 3rd is overbalanced...it's not seriously so.

2. If overbalanced, there will be little feel for the forces on the control surface. Balancing the rudder reduces the feel of the pressures brought on by an unbalanced boat. A rudder should be underbalanced enough so that some degree of helm balance feel remains but not so much as to be a torque problem.

With the poor steering ratio and the tendancy of the 250 to suffer significant weather helm when heeled very much, Gerry Douglas likely took the balance of the rudder to the max, at least thats my impression from use of the 3rd on the water ballast model.

My point is this, to not experience any weather helm on the 250 is a bit surprising knowing her history well. It is possible that weather helm is there, but the balanced rudder just mask it. Racers for example shy away from balanced rudders because they want to feel weather helm when it exist because they acutely know that weather helm means speed robbing drag. The large thick foiled 3rd rudder has a lot of lift at higher angles of attack but this thick foil at greater angle of attack includes lots of drag.

The 2nd generation which is unbalanced is a high aspect ratio rudder which provides a high degree of lift but at much less angle of attack and therefore has a better lift to drag ratio. It will however obviously transmit rudder loads to the helm and often these were severe when the boat was experiencing weather helm, hence why I went to an open cable steering linkage that allowed a much better steering ratio.

Take a look at the rudder sometime when heeling well and see if the rudder is set to a significant angle of attack to hold course. It may be generating considerable turbulence.... if so, the boat is experiencing weather helm that's not being felt because of the highly balanced rudder design.

Edited by - on

GREGG
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2004 : 21:30:49

Arlyn,
All I know for sure is that in winds to 15 mph the boat needs little input from me and that if left alone she will not turn up into the wind. I like a boat that is ballanced and will sail herself and I was very surprised that my 250 WK would do this. We did oversteer the boat when we first sailed her but coming from a tiller I thought that was our problem and not the boats. This summer there was no in between for us. Light to moderated winds or blowing and gusting. In the blowing and gusting stuff I was to busy holding on to figure out if she had weather helm. However I seldom let her get over powered and will reef to keep heel at 10 to 15 degrees, I prefer 10 degrees. I also added 200 lbs to the bow before I ever sailed her. Over all I like the way this boat handles. Thanks so much for your input and for all you do for us 250 owners.

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2004 : 08:56:52

Ahoy Greg! and welcome aboard. Has the boat a name yet? I am completely happy myself with the way the 250 sails. When I first saw one my son and I were impressed with the room on her. And that is the main reason I bought one. It is a cruiser, not a racer. And it is a BIG little boat.
Good Luck with yours.

PS I don't know what all the problem is getting on the cabin deck is either. I much prefer to be on the deck than a skinny walkway around the outside of the dog house.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 15:11:42

When I was considering the C-250, the drawings I saw showed that the center of lateral resistance (CLR) for the wing keel was substantially aft (like maybe a foot) of the CLR for the centerboard (fully down). It looked like, to get them equal, the centerboard would have to be raised as much as 30 degrees. That could explain Gregg's neutral helm compared to Arlyn's (and other WBs') weather helm. I always wondered about why Catalina put the centerboard so far forward, unless it was to allow adjustment by pulling it as much as 1/3 up. Do they say anything about that in the user's guide?

I prefer just a little weather helm, which is what I have now (or had when my C-25 was in the water). First, I like the notion that if I let go of everything, the boat stops--the pull on the tiller is almost imperceptible in up to 15 knots. Second (a distant second for me), an expert racer/rigger told me that a few degrees (<=5) of weather helm increases the lift on the keel, making the boat faster to weather. I have only the glimmer of a hunch of why that would be true... but it's academic to me.

Gregg: For what you need, it sounds like it doesn't get any better than what you have!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/12/2004 15:17:59

GREGG
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 21:58:22

Ben and Dave,
Ben we are still discussing the name. And Dave thanks for the note. To be honest the 250 WK was not the boat I wanted. But after the co-captain got a look at one in our marina I was finished. I guess that is why I'm pleased with the way it sails. I really didn't expect it and she forced me to buy it. Honest.

Ben, my daughter lives just north of Tampa and we sure would like to pull the boat down there for a month or two, problem is work keeps getting in the way.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.