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Single Line Reefing Smooth as glass

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/12/2004 : 23:30:47

The August Mainsheet had a tech. tip on page 79 for the C380/390 on single line reefing. Most of the complaints for this system was the difficulty of getting it to put the mainsail at the proper location and the friction caused by the blocks and sail cringles.
I figure anything is worth a try to keep form having to go forward to reef when required. I purchased two Ronstan 30100 series blocks and two 3/16 by one inch rings; total cost $30.00. I installed the system Sunday when I put the boom back on from hurricane prep. It took a little while to get the main haylard marked for the first reef with max tension on the sail luff, but once done it works smoother than glass. The only difference from the tech tip is on the C250 the in-boom reef line runs on the port side so both blocks are port on the sail, rather than starboard as on the 380.
I did all this in 25mph winds out of the NE, which is right on the nose of PennyII in her birth, so I got all the flapping and boom movement you would get turning her in the wind if under sail. I went up and down with it so many times that my neighbor came out to help. He thought I was having problems getting everthing put back together. So I had him try it a couple of times as I talked him through it. This neighbor is not a sailor and has only been on a sailboat once and thats when I took him out before "H" season. He had no problems putting in the reef.
We hope to take her out tomorrow and try it on a beam reach just to see if it will still work as well. We all know that sometimes you have to emergency reef on any point of sail to gain positive control.

Frog and The General

C250, Pretty Penny II, #743
FLEET 25
Coronado 15, M-Cube, #3316

Edited by - on

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2004 : 23:03:00

Thanks for the post. It sent me running to look for the August mainsheet. I found the article on T9. I had just given up on the single line reefing system and was going to go to a two line system. But I have been working on getting a spinnaker and spinnaker pole launcher setup on another one of my boats and hadn’t gotten to this project. I will give this a try as a last resort. I hope it works because it is the simplest solution. The other thing I will need to do is to put Jack lines on my sail slugs so I can get the cringle down to the boom. Let us know how it works under load. Keith

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 19:59:00

I must have tossed my copy of the August Mainsheet. I know I had it. Any chance of a picture???

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 20:32:33

I must have trashed my copy also - I'm in the process of redoing my reefing line(s)and would appreciate a picture or two. I've added a triple clutch and deck organizer on the starbord side and moved the single clutch over to port along with the other single organizer ( which if you disassemble it - it will stack ontop of the other single organizer - just get longer bolts). I'm especially fuzzy about the use/location of the rings.

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 22:28:45

Another vote for a copy of the Tech Tip. I already recyled my August Mainsheet & I didn't read the tech tips for any of the boats over 34'.

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2004 : 23:12:46

I’m all for recycling but you might consider getting a ring binder and saving the tech tips they are already punched with three holes and easily pull out.

I'd love see a photo of your set up when you get a chance. It would make a great addition to the C25/C250 website's tech tips.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2004 : 23:20:55

Could not get any pictures today. Too much wind and rain in the A.M. and to much wind in the P.M. Will try and get some tomorrow before the winds pick up. Going to have to find my long unders first, since suppose to be 47 here in the A.M. I do hate cold weather.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2004 : 10:45:20

Here are the pictures showing the relationship of the rings to the blocks and the routing of the same.

Ring and Block

Forward reef block position

Aft reef block position

Note how the reef fold drops neatly to the port side of the boom even with the mast gate installed. I haven't figured out how the second reef will run exactly, but in looking at it with the sail down to that point, it appears that the mast gate will have to be removed, so the slugs can come out, for the reef to fold down correctly over the boom
Hope this helps and if there are any other questions let me know.

Edited by - frog0911 on 10/16/2004 10:52:21

Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2004 : 21:52:13

Thanks for ther pictures. If anyone is interested the 380 org has the article on their web site. http://www.catalina380.org/article_display.asp?ID=114

As an aside most hardware stores have the 1" , 1.25" , 1.5" ss rings much cheaper than WM. I just bought some at Lowes for .45 compared to WM for over $5.00

Edited by - Grego5 on 10/16/2004 21:58:08

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2004 : 22:13:05

Hmmm, this gives me a very good idea.....I've got two of those rings, (double ones actually, one on each side, connected to each other, permanently installed) in the tack cringle of the first and the second reef of Lady Kay....the first reef is set up for single line reefing, the second reef is not in use, but will need to be available for the Florida run next month.
Right now the reef line just runs through the ring.....but a block would be a lot less friction. Better even, a snap shackle on the block would allow me to quickly take it off the first reef and snap it onto the second reef! That saves me setting up a second line!

Frog, it would require a trip forward, but a snap shackle would allow you to undo it, and then move the ring up one hole and reattach the block......

I have lazy jacks, they help keeping the sail from blowing all over the place when you lower it to do all this....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Formerly C250 WB #618)

Edited by - Oscar on 10/16/2004 22:19:53

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2004 : 01:04:29

Jerry what you will need to get the second reef down to the boom are sail jack lines.
Jacklines are used along the hoisted edges of sails to make it possible to pull the sail away from the mast or the stay while it is lowered. They are especially useful in reefing mainsails that are secured to the mast with slides or slugs trapped in the spar. As the hardware comes down the mast and stacks up at the stopping point on the track or slot, the jackline permits the sail to be pulled away from the mast and down to the boom where it belongs. Headsails that are secured to a boom also benefit since the distance from the clew to the stem is longer than the distance from the clew to the stay -- when the sail is lowered, it must pull away from the stay if it is to be lowered all the way.
First let me describe the principle behind a jackline. It is a line running from the tack of the sail up the luff a distance roughly equal to the width of the sail at its base. This line is secured to the sail at both ends. At intervals of from 26 to 30 inches along this length, the line is threaded through pairs of round brass thimbles that are sewn to the edge of the sail. Hardware to attach the sail at the intervals is threaded on the line between each thimble pair. When the sail is hoisted, the line is tight and the hardware is pulled tightly against the edge of the sail between the thimble pairs. When the sail is lowered, this hardware falls away from the edge of the sail on the relaxed line. It really is a very simple concept.
Grommets are installed along the sail to secure the ends of the jackline. Two more grommets are installed at each intermediate point. Brass thimbles are sewn to these intermediate grommets as show in the figure below.The only diffrence from the picture is to replace the snap with a sail slug.

Secure one end of the jackline. A splice yields the most attractive and compact attachment. Then thread the line through the first interval thimble, then the attachment hardware (the figure above shows a special "jackline snap" that is cast with a single hole -- in the case of a mainsail slug or slide a thimble would be whipped to the attachment harware's bail), then through the second interval thimble. Continue in this fashion to the last interval set. Finally, attach the free end of the line at the final grommet. The jackline should be secured so it is under some tension when the sail luff is pulled to its full length. Arlyn made mention of these on one of his post. I think he has them on his boat. I haven’t put them on my boat yet but they are on the list. Keith

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2004 : 22:54:00

Oscar, the snap shackle idea is okay for the double rings, but PennyII doesn't have that, just the single I put on it. I would hate to have to unhook and try and rehook with the ring on one side only. However, a hook alone might just do it if one could find one long enough.
Keith, I have jack lines on my main now, but I have not played with them to see exactly how they function. I will have to do that along with Oscar's snap shackle/hook idea to see how they would work. I was trying to keep from having to go forward to employ the second reef. As of now I have two unuse spinlock SAS clutches and two single deck orgainizers that could be used to put another reef line on the port side by attaching the single deck orgainizers to the port side of the boom and running the same set up as the in boom reef except external. I would just need one more mast block to make it work. Still working on what I think would be the best method.
Thanks for the explaination, it does explain why the rope is on my main luff and how it should be used.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 16:09:08

Thanks for the pics - it makes sense now. I've been wondering if it would be possible to rework the topping lift pully(s) to set up a second reefing in the same amnner of the first. The only problem might be the small angle of pull on the clew end of the second reef point.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2004 : 23:57:14

The shallow angle is the reason I figured to add a block 45 degrees back form the were the reef point touched the boom on the starboard side. Then another starboard side front and a small block to the mast. It will be awhile before I get this second reef done due to cost and other projects not necessarilly involving the boat, if you know what I mean.
I did try the reef today while on a beam reach, with starboard winds of 8 gust to 12, without bringing PennyII up into the wind and it operated just as smooth as before. The only difference was the fold ended up on the port side of course. All in all I am very satisfied with the mod. and my thanks go out to the Tom McMahan, C380 #29, Pleiades for the tip.

Edited by - frog0911 on 10/19/2004 22:28:35

chris wray
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2004 : 13:50:03

Frog0911,
Thank you much for the photos of the reefing mod. I can hardly wait to get that rigged on my boat. It addresses the problems I have been trying to work through for a while.
CW

Edited by - on

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2004 : 11:11:13

Jerry: Thank you for the photos. Two things I see different from my sail, first mine doesn't have the grommet at the foot for setting the aft reefing line around the boom, an easy fix. Second mine doesn’t have the jack lines. Could you add a picture of those so I could see them setup on a 250?? In my attempts to get the single line system to work I have found that the line tends to jam up in the cheek block on the port side of the mast unless you are heading up wind. What seemed to really help was instead of using the cheek block I ran the line down to the mast base and put a block down there. This gave the line a longer run to twist as it went down to the block at the base of the mast and it could also twist to follow the line for what ever sail set you are on.

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mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2004 : 01:17:06

Oscar,

You said:
I have lazy jacks, they help keeping the sail from blowing all over the place when you lower it to do all this....

That is until it's blowing like hell and the main is halfway down and tangled up in the lazy jacks ......

Anyway, a very good idea to have a smooth working reefing method for a long trip like a sail to Florida. Isn't it getting a tad frosty in the Bay? I hear there's lots of wreckage down in Florida to avoid.

Max

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 12:55:37

I have not had the problem with the mast cheek block and really can't give you a reason why not. I have noticed the reefing line will fall and get rapped on the block if you don't pull in the reef when you lower the sail so the line stays tight on the block. This was a small pain pulling the reef out when raising the sail until I put the Tom McMahan 380 mod. on the sail, now no problem.
The two new pictures show the first and second boom reef cringles and the jack line that came with sail on the boat when I bought it.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 13:23:45

Hi All, I've been following this thread but holding back comments and I still don't have much to offer except.

I'm desirous to hear what sail makers have to say about altering the loads of reef cringles from verticle towards horizontal... any one talked with a sail maker about this yet?

Edited by - on

chris wray
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 20:18:25

Hi all,
OK Arlyn point taken.
Would you be so kind as to post photos (as clear and as straight forward as the block and ring photos above) of the double line reefing set up that you use on your boat. Thanks.
Chris W 655321

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2004 : 22:26:04

If the pull was at a straight 90 degrees to the cringle I would be worry also, but as you can see from the pictures the pull is more vertical. There is a slight pull horizontial, but I do no think enough to overload the cringle an pull it through the sail. This is MHO, but time will tell.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 17:40:20

Frog, taking another look at the pics, they don't show serious side loading in the static conditions, you might monitor them and note and further side loading under loaded conditions.

Chris, I don't have pics of my double line reefing, but I did make a drawing using Catalina's base drawing as a starting point.

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/reefing.html"]rigging for two double line reefs[/url]

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2004 : 21:05:33

I just finished adding a mast gate (really lets the slugs drop down lower) and a triple rope clutch on my C250 so I can run the reefing lines to the cockpit and add a Cunningham. The standard Catalina single line reefing works reasonably well now when the main has some luffing in it. I did have a small problem trying to get the clew end to pull down tight to the boom when not heading into the wind. I haven't finished the second reef set up - need a calm day to get sail up to measure, mark, drill and tap for the cheek blocks.

Here are a few sites that do a good job of discussing single and double line reefing, jack lines and some angles of pull info.

http://www.pineapplesails.com/articles/reefing.htm
http://www.bartonmarine.com/html/PDF/Fitting%20Instructions%20for%20Single%20Line%20Mainsail%20Reefing%20Syst%85.pdf
http://www.madeincuritiba.com.br/musashi/Rizo.pdf
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=bthlnd035
http://www.harken.com/rigtips/reefing.php
http://www.longpassages.org/boat_changes.htm
http://www.oceanpix.co.uk/sailing-basicreefing.htm

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2004 : 12:39:15

OK - I added the second reefing line with two cheek blocks and eye straps on the boom (starboard side) a ring and a small block on the front reef hole another block at the mast base (already had a deck organizer slot and a rope clutch open). All works fairly well (some messing with the clew end to get it down tight). What does one do with the excess line when the sail is dropped. It is 7 feet from the boom up to the 2nd reef points - that's 14 feet of excess line hanging out in two places (28 feet total). Do you just stuff it inside the folds of the main or pull in all the slack as you drop it. This might be picky but one doesn't want to look like a neanderthal on the high seas.

Edited by - frankr on 11/01/2004 12:41:08

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2004 : 20:05:08

Arlyn has a point. Intuitively I don't crank the living daylight out of the main halyard when reefing.....reefing already boogers up the shape of the main, there's no point in trying to control flattening too much. I pull just enough oomph on to keep the luff straight.

As far as the lazy jacks are concerned......after discharging a case of sailkote into the main track, letting go the main halyard brings her down.....like a piano. brrrrrrrrrrrrrdoenk. And in thirty knots too. right between the lazy jacks, then I keep her into the wind and go up and put two sail ties around her, without touching the sail. She hasn't gotten away from me yet.

In all fairness I must point out that having a cabin top of sizeable proportion contributes to keeping ones footing.

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618)

Edited by - Oscar on 11/01/2004 20:06:28

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2004 : 22:36:18

Harken used to recommend sending a sail into a sailmaker to have the ring hung from new reinforcing web straps that were above the reef cringle thereby reducing the side loading.

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