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Anyone try this rudder?

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jcfordham
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/29/2004 : 19:14:25

We've had our almost brand new 250wb for a couple weeks now and I've been reading a lot about the rudder controversy. As very novice sailors we can't really judge the helm quality with our 3rd generation rudder. On our first and only time out weatherhelm was a significant topic of discussion. We had some pretty gusty breezes on Lake Dillon, Colorado (notorious for tricky wind) but had owners of a Catalina 25 and a Hobie racer on board for support and guidance. Anyway, to get to the point, would the replacement rudder offered in the Catalinaowners.com Chandlery:
http://shop.catalinaowners.com/detail.tpl?cart=3300105012944218&fno=20&group=389

be a worthwhile improvement? Anyone have first-hand experience with one?

They describe it thus:

Dramatically increase the performance of your Catalina 250

This high performance rudder for the C250 offers true NACA airfoil, balanced blade profile and solid high density polyethylene (hdpe) construction. Forget about the first, second and third generation rudders that came with the C250, this rudder is design to overcome weather helm, reduce helm effort, and sail faster on and off the wind. Owners using this rudder report better pointing and speed to weather and much reduced helm effort, resulting in more enjoyable sailing. Super-Duty stainless pintles are included. The 1.5" rudderhead will accept your factory tiller as well.

Thanks in advance for your comments. This forum has been a tremendous resource helping us purchase our first boat (yea!).

Jack

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 19:28:52

Jack, I only have the first generation rudder and that serves my puposes right now. I would consider warranty implications on your boat and also if you plan to race the boat is that rudder approved
for racing. "Bear"

Edited by - on

arlingva
Navigator

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USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2004 : 22:33:18

That appears to be the rudder that came standard with my 2002 WK #614. I have been sailing for almost 40 years and have not experinced the weather helm and problems with rounding up that others have reported with their rudders. My only caution is for WB owners this is a deep rudder (same draft as the keel on the WK) and you don't want it to be the first thing that hits a solid bottom or obstruction.

Bill

Edited by - arlingva on 08/03/2004 23:43:46

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 16:40:51

Jack, that I know of, no one has previously compared the rudder you mention. I offered to compare the rudder for them but received no answer. I expect they had several such offers and had a testing program they felt happy about. It would be helpful to make comparisons but they are probably not necessary.

Here is what we know about the Catalina rudders.

The 1st has inadequate lift.

The 2nd has great lift but suffers torque issues because its not balanced.

The 3rd short has inadequate lift for aggressive conditions.

The 3rd long (I've not experienced) has good lift and better slow speed performance.

The 3rd is not a high aspect ratio rudder and therefore will have more drag than the 2nd.

The rudder you describe should have plenty of lift and have less drag. It may have less slow speed control than Catalina's 3rd long.

I do not reccomend the 3rd short or the 1st unless sailing in rather benign conditions.

Having said that, I still believe the water ballast boat deserves a beaching rudder like the 2nd. If the Sailboat Owners dot com rudder is offered in a beaching configuration... it sounds like it would be great for the c250 wb. Actually, the Catalina 2nd beaching makes a great rudder for the 250 wb.

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 19:57:41

Just curious. What rudder would you recommend for a 2000 cat 250 WK?

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 21:16:33

Jack;
I also am using a 3rd gen rudder on my 250wb. I like the ballance of the rudder but didn't feel that it had sufficient depth to maintain control at large angles of heal. You can reduce heal a number of ways, but sometimes puffs hit you when you arn't ready. I made a simple modification to the rudder that seems to help the rudder maintain control. I made a wing out of a piece of 1/8" aluminum plate (6061 t6) the plate measures aprox. 8" x 14". I cut the corners off the leading edge at 45 degrees, leaving a flat spot on the leading edge of about 1 1/2" I glued the plate to the bottom of the rudder blade with 3M 5200, being careful to keep the plate at 90 degrees to the pintail axis and faces of the rudder. I hope my picute comes through and shows what it looks like.
Best of luck,
Bill c250wb #134 Serendipity

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2004 : 07:38:36

Folks,
I am STILL searching for that beaching rudder!
Anybody that wants to sell one...just let me know!
Willy

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2004 : 20:44:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frogger
 Just curious. What rudder would you recommend for a 2000 cat 250 WK?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The 3rd gen rudder. The one for the wing keel 71" long. I put the 3rd on my 2000wk in April 2001. It works great for me.

Edited by - on

timnkelle
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2004 : 16:22:17

We have the beaching rudder on our 94 250 water ballast and it does have alot of weather helm. Tim used to work in a boat yard and is good with glass work. He plans to add to and reshape the rudder so it is more like the balanced rudder but still a beaching rudder. We have so many projects, we have not gotten to this one yet, but will post pics and results on performance once done.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2004 : 16:56:32

So you all can visualize....this is a 3rd gen (water ballast "shortie") next to a Catalina original kick up....

I did some bigger water sailing with my 250. When it heels it wants to head up, for a variety of usual, and not so usual, reasons. Uncontrolled round-ups were a problem. Problem is that when heeled, there is not a lot of the "shortie" in the water anymore. Once I got the kick-up I never looked back. With it , and proper sail plan management, the boat sails well. The Catalina.com kick up rudder looks like the ticket, but they are proud of it...

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618)
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

"Hindsight is 20/20, if I knew then what I know now, I would now be living on a small wooden sailboat, making a few bucks here and there playing a guitar and singing songs in bars."

Edited by - Oscar on 12/04/2004 17:07:41

paulb
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2004 : 01:53:22

Hi Jack:

I have had problems in the past with weather helm and rounding up on my '89 Macgregor wb. Thanks to their forum I found out about a small company called Ida Sailor who specialized in aftermarket products made from hdpe plastic. I purchased one of their kick-up rudders and have never looked back It completely cured weather helm and problems with rounding up. I have recieved excellent customer service and after purchase communications.

I recently purchased a used Catalina 250 which came with a solid rudder and looks like one of the longer ones (? generation). This is not acceptable to me as I like to use my boats in the delta and also like to beach the boat on the various lakes I go to. I also go up to the Gulf Islands where there are treacherous reefs and submerged loggerheads.

I just recieved my new Catalina 250 complete kick-up rudder from Ida sailer and I am impressed by the quality of construction and simplicity of operation. It is kind of pricy although much less expensive than a replacement rudder from Catalina.

I have not used the new rudder yet, but am hopeful that it will perform like similar rudders I have purchased in the past.
If you are interested in how well it works I will post results as soon as I complete the other mods I am doing and get in the water again.

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2004 : 10:05:48

Paul, did you install your new Ida rudder yet? I heard in the past those who have a 3rd generation rudder who go to a kick up have to do some home made mods to hook it on. Any input on this?
Although the 250 has been beached I often wonder if this is wise. I've read about some cb 250s who either grounded or hit rocks which pushed their centerboard up and sheared the cb cable. Is the 250 designed to sit on sand? Can the CB take all that pressure?

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2004 : 10:34:00

Suzie, I currently still use the first generation kickup rudder on my C250 WB. I have gone into beaches here in upstate N.Y. many times.
The method which seems to work is to back in very slowly with the centerboard up and the swim ladder down. Useing the bottom of the swim ladder as a reference point. Usually I go down the swim ladder and manhandle the boat into shore, but not letting the centerboard touch the bottom and then anchor the boat as necessary. I am only talking shallow beaches here with no underwater obstructions. Just my two cents. "Bear" 3" of snow last night in upstate N.Y.

Edited by - on

paulb
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 00:40:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sailgal
 Paul, did you install your new Ida rudder yet? I heard in the past those who have a 3rd generation rudder who go to a kick up have to do some home made mods to hook it on. Any input on this?
Although the 250 has been beached I often wonder if this is wise. I've read about some cb 250s who either grounded or hit rocks which pushed their centerboard up and sheared the cb cable. Is the 250 designed to sit on sand? Can the CB take all that pressure?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes I have tried in on the boat and it appears to work just fine on the trailer. When it stops raining and I have done the basic mods I previously mentioned I will get it on the water and give a full report. If it is anything like the two I have previously purchased, it will perform flawlessly. All I can say now is that it really looks good and functions well on the trailer.

The procedure I mean by "beaching" is as follows: When a group of us go to a sandy shored lake or other body of water, we drop a bow anchor about 50 to 75 feet from shore and allow the boats to swing around until the stern is in about 12 inches of water. We then tie off to shore from the stern, drop the swim ladder sometimes in inches of water. This allows easy access for social activities on shore or other and still leaves about a foot or more water unter the lowest part of the keel depending on how gradual the depth of the water increases. There is no way I would intentionally ground the boat unless I was sinking.

Edited by - on

sterngucker
Navigator

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USA
169 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 04:53:02

Wow! TWO sources for kick up rudders??? Woo Hoo! No more living in fear of unintentional instantaneous rudder removal? No more waiting till I've backed the trailer in the water, dragging the rudder out of the cabin, over the side, and hoping I don't drop the pins and rings in the briney deep? This could shave some time off my setup. (A serious personal goal of mine, I trailer alot) Somebody pinch me!

I have the loooong 3rd gen rudder and it is about 2" deeper than the pavement. I suppose I could fix that by just not removing it next time I pull the boat up the ramp.

Paul, we are on the edge of our collective seats awaiting your appraisal. Have you tried it out yet? well? How 'bout now? Now?
Can you tell this is a major thing for me? Hope it works out well for you (and subsequently us!).

Edited by - sterngucker on 12/08/2004 05:02:21

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 09:32:14

Got cha (re: beaching explained) Good luck with the rudder, sounds like a few of us will be eagerly awaiting a report.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2004 : 09:35:04

Charlie, I enjoyed your post in part because I've been a long time advocate of the beaching rudder on the water ballast model. A beaching rudder simply fits the character of this boat much better in my opinion and allows the boat the freedoms for which it was originally designed.

I've argued my position with Catalina, but their desire to rid themselves of the problems caused by their own poorly designed hold down system had their heels dug in. This was unfortunate because the fix was very simple.

And, the fix not only cured the problem of a lagging aft rudder and the huge torque issues it brought on but also solved the struggle of getting the rudder pulled down into place, having previously required hanging over the stern and pushing it down with ones foot.

I am also interested in the on the water trials and have a few basic questions.

<ul><li>Does this beaching design have both a pull up and pull down line? </li><li>Will the rudder self retract down after a grounding? </li><li>Does the rudder have adequate lift (control) to hold the boat from any roundups? </li><li>Does the rudder experience any significant attack angles (producing turbulence and drag) when greater control is needed? </li><li>Does the rudder provide a reasonable balance between the extreams of too much torque or no rudder feel?</li></ul>
I'd like to add your report to tech discussions of the Mainsheet. Catalina screens all the tech offerings and a discussion there will at the minimum catch their attention. I continue to think it unfortunate that a buyer of a Catalina yacht has to seek an aftemarket rudder to become satisfied when Catalina in fact had a super beaching rudder that needed only an admission of a design flaw in the hold down design and a simple modification to solve.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2004 : 22:02:40

I am not a 250 owner and cannot comment on the generations therefore, but remind all that Phil Bolger some years ago stated that he designed an end plate rudder (similar ro the one in the photos) and it worked so well that he has made it a feature of almost all his designs since. If Orion ('81 C25 srsk) ever gets the ultimate present of a wing keel, you can bet that her rudder will be going into the garage for an endplateectomy (otomy?) Fair winds to all, ron in SW FL

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2004 : 23:00:09

Ron;
Good catch, I got the idea for the endplate that I put on my 3rd gen rudder, from the endplate on my Bolger designed cat boat rudder.
The endplate on the catboat rudder allows great control with only about 8 inches of rudder in the water.
Bill, c250wb #134 Serendipity

Edited by - on

sterngucker
Navigator

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USA
169 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 12:13:25

After reading the [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/racing/racing.html#Racing%20Rules"]Rules for Racing[/url] I am concerned that the [url="http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=449&osCsid=c96a251e8717a7b98215c65d48e5885b"]IdaSailor C250 Kick-up Rudder [/url] , or any other after market rudder, might be in violation of Rule B. Is this a legal mod? Thanks.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 13:01:33

Charlie, that new signature photo must be from one of the shots Kim took while on board Indiscipline?

Looks good!

Email or post some more!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 13:09:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sterngucker
 After reading the [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/racing/racing.html#Racing%20Rules"]Rules for Racing[/url] I am concerned that the [url="http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=449&osCsid=c96a251e8717a7b98215c65d48e5885b"]IdaSailor C250 Kick-up Rudder [/url] , or any other after market rudder, might be in violation of Rule B. Is this a legal mod? Thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A year ago the 250 forum was hard on the issue of replacement rudders. I provided some ideas for stock replacements from other boats. At that time I suggested that the association consider removing any langauge regarding the rudders on 250s to open up the fleet to experimentation. There are already four different rudders and while I doubt heir performance is identical I doubt even more that any rudder makes an appreaciable difference in performance. SO I would suggest a representative of the 250 fleet request that the board address the issue. We are meeting this weekend.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2004 : 18:14:31

Charlie,

As the rules stand now, I'd say you're correct that an aftermarket rudder from other than Catalina molds would be prohibited from racing in a C25/250 Nationals.....if it were protested, which I would think would be unlikely because encouraging participation is far more important than discouraging it.

The '03 Nationals saw a 150 headsail used on one boat with modified placement of the jib sheet tracks which would be a significant change and it was allowed which probably illustrates my point.

Could the rudder offer an advantage? Sure, if its a high aspect ratio rudder it will likely have a better lift to drag ratio than the current production rudder. That said, the 1st generation rudder had very little drag compared to the 3rd and would be very compeditive in all but heavier air.

There is danger however in allowing cumulative changes...because speed gains are the sum of each small gain.

I am probably the leading advocate of a beaching rudder especially on the water ballast model, but having said that... I would encourage those who race to perhaps hold onto their stock rudder and use it at a Nationals to keep things as heads up as possible.... to avoid the slippery slope of allowing this and then that which will lead to significant speed gains for the person that spends extra money and effort to trick out a boat.

As to other racing venues, I'm not sure that any prohibition by Association rules would come into play so I think it would be OK to use the rudder that suits best.

Frank's point is well made, there are all ready four Catalina rudders so more in the mix is likley no shake .... except for the person who is very compeditive and doesn't wish to yield any advantages.

I can yet remember my Hobie Cat racing days and they weren't even all that serious...but if someone had wanted to run after market rudders...I'd said.... NO WAY!

Would I hang a blade rudder on my 250 W/B if a good beaching rudder were available.... NO WAY!

If I made it to the Nationals, in a spirit of co-operation I would bring a Catalina rudder if I had one, even if I didn't think it was as good as the after market in regular use.

Edited by - on

jcfordham
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 17:08:06

Back to an old topic

...I notice changes proposed in the class rules regarding the rudder sent out for approval. Specifically:

Change to: 1. Rudders shall be made from a mold commercially available to all competitors. (Rudders manufactured for C-250s by Catalina Yachts or elsewhere prior to the publication and association approval of these rules are considered to be approved. In the case where the rudders are obviously different from those now being manufactured, proof of origin may be required.)

Will this make the Ida aftermarket rudders legal?

Jack

Edited by - on

Jim Mc
1st Mate

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USA
43 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2005 : 00:35:32

The following comments are based on a novice with only two seasons of lake sailing experience. Last season we had a lot of weather helm, rounding up and excess steering wheel torque when sailing our 2000 WK in 15 -20 K OF wind. The Edson pull-pull steering had a lot of play even after adjustments. Being an impatient person I installed Arlyn's steering conversion and replaced the 2nd generation rudder with an Ida kick up. This season we regularly sail in 15-25 K with out any problems. With the proper sail set I can steer with two fingers when it is blowing 20K +. You have very good feel at the helm. We have rounded up only one time this season when a 30K gust hit and we were slow letting out the main sheet. I would recommend buying Arlyn's conversion first and then perhaps go to the Ida rudder. The rudder installation on an Edson system is very easy. The kick up rudder can be held down with a line or a special plastic pin they supply. With our current arrangement my wife gets bored if it's not blowing at least 15K.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2005 : 12:24:18

I have this rudder! It does a great job of keeping me from rounding up going to wind and is really convenient for getting into those skinny water places the Admiral loves.
The downsides...
It puts excessive strain on your gudgeons when it is in any position but all the way down or all the way up.
Do not expect to use your tiller and bracket without considerable modification to the bracket before using. They really make it sound like it is an easy "hang and go" proposition which is complete BS unless you get their tiller along with the rudder. I have spoken to them about this, and they are certainly polite, but they seem to feel changing the wording they use in their sales copy would hinder sales and so would rather deal wirth frustrated folks after the fact than be forthright on the front end...
Calls em like he sees em...
Willy

Edited by - on

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