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Catalina 25 and 250 performance

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/15/2004 : 14:50:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ssteakley
 We had a 4th and 4 1st place finishes...this is what a C250 is capable of doing.
you can see from the pic (deleted in this post) that the other 5 sailboats including 2 32' Beneteau's are not even in sight!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Does this mean he beat these boats scratch? I must live in an alternate universe. I cannot fathom this result. 15-20 mph or knots means everyone has the boatspeed they are designed for, how can a 250 win? You can correct occasionally but beat them scratch? Why have all of the J-24 fleets not converted to 250's? I know the "on any Sunday" effect is always in place but it seems we have a lot of posts like this from 250s and 25s, it just baffles me. I really hope that at next year's Nationals at Lake Cheney I get to learn a lot because currently I am thrilled if I can finish with the committee boat still on station!

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 06/15/2004 15:10:18

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 15:38:24

Frank - our Cruiser Fleet (which Steve won handily) races modified PHRF. They get an extra allowance for roller-furling, extra for R/F with UV cover, headsail less than 150 (even more if you only have a 110), extra for a 2 or 3-bladed fixed prop and a final allowance if you haven't trophied on the lake in the last year. I don't know whether Steve was first to finish in each race - but he sure earned his victory!
Where was "This Side Up"? - getting thoroughly whomped match racing a J-24 (with a C22 National Champion at the helm and a crew member - my old sailmaker - who finished 5th in the last Worrell 1000!) Who was it said "you can't win 'em all?...

I regularly beat a C30, a J-27, a Cal 24-3 and a Soling 27 - and very occasionally beat that &*()^% J-24!

Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 17:21:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Does this mean he beat these boats scratch? I must live in an alternate universe. I cannot fathom this result. 15-20 mph or knots means everyone has the boatspeed they are designed for, how can a 250 win? You can correct occasionally but beat them scratch? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I can't think of any sport that is more complex than yacht racing. There is an almost infinite number of variable factors that can affect each boat, and that can change the outcome of a race. Which boats prepped their bottoms the best at the beginning of the season? Which ones scrubbed their bottoms before each race? Were their rigs tuned correctly? Were their sails trimmed correctly all the way around the course? Which ones found the strongest winds and the most favorable wind directions, and which ones played those winds the most effectively? Who got the best starts, rounded the marks the most efficiently, handled the sails the most efficiently, and steered the smartest course. Who uses the rules to the greatest advantage? The list of variables and of skills is almost endless. When a sport has so many variable factors, a skipper and crew that perform exceptionally well in a race can beat other skippers and crews that made mistakes in that same race, even if the former's boat is not as fast as the latters'.

It's tempting to chalk up a win like that to luck, and there's a certain amount of luck involved in every race, but there are some racers who consistently beat well-sailed and well-prepped boats to the finish line, even though their competitors' boats are rated faster that their own boats. That's skill, not luck. The larger the difference in handicaps between the faster and slower boats, the harder it is for the slower boat to beat the faster one to the finish line, and the less frequently it will happen. But when a relatively slow boat beats an exceptionally fast boat, scratch, you can bet that the winning skipper sailed one heckuva race.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 20:30:19

Having outrun a 62' Swan (in a light-air race he didn't know he was in), I can attest to all that Steve Milby says!

Steve Steakey has definitely proven himself--I'd bet on him, Derek, or Steve M. over most reasonably comparable boats. A well-sailed Catalina (name your size) can astonish a lot of people! I recall reading last year about one that ate up its class in a major race to Hawaii.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 20:51:22

"A well-sailed Catalina (name your size) can astonish a lot of people!"
Not only well-sailed, Dave but well prepared!

Derek

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2004 : 21:01:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 "A well-sailed Catalina (name your size) can astonish a lot of people!"
Not only well-sailed, Dave but well prepared!

Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Right--I meant to say that!

Edited by - on

lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 12:33:47

Let's not get carried away here, a C25 or 250 is alot of things, but it is not others, like a race boat or a ocean crosser. It is a fun boat that can occasionally win a race (if the competition is light) but let's be real, we will never beat a J(name your size) unless it has a hole in it, and although I have never sailed one, I cannot even think of running with a Beneteau 32. I like to play around on Wednesday night to, but let's be serious.
A Capri 26 on the other hand, well they can do some damage, but still not outrun a J (name your size)
I however will take My C25 over any J22 or 24 for a weekend cruise, which is what the Catalina was designed for.
Preperation and luck all good and well, but physics is something noe of us can escape.

Lance
85 FK/SR

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 13:14:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lancej
 Let's not get carried away here...physics is something noe of us can escape.

Lance
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If the physics of the boat design were the only factor, then a one-design race would end in dead-heat for the entire fleet. But the ones I've watched and been in, including J-24 fleets, always have a few stars running away from the fleet, and a few "casual racers" making everybody else look good. And the J-24 fleet here is pretty even in terms of preparation (dry-slipped, new sails, waxed bottoms, etc.) To see what a legendary Catalina 42 has done to some heavy hitters, take a look at http://www.transpacificyc.org/03/arrivals/WindDancer.html. I suspect the owners of the Tripps, Cals, and some others would prefer that the results of the 2003 Transpac not be publicized.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 13:34:12

"we will never beat a J(name your size) unless it has a hole in it"
Lance - the J-27 that I usually beat, and the J-24 that I sometimes beat seem to sail well despite the hole in them...! Remember that my boat is kept on a hoist, so the bottom is almost as slick as a dry-sailed J, and it's probably 400 - 500 lbs lighter than most C25's because the hull has dried out over the last 12 years (the boat rides 2" higher in the water than when we bought her

)
The reason we have PHRF is that everyone technically should finish even on corrected time. Why some boats win consistently is because they are better prepared and better sailed! It's really that simple...if you can't finish close to a J-24 et al then maybe you need to prep your boat better, tune the rigging to the optimum, and not make major mistakes on the course.

Just MHO.
Derek

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 14:45:27

Most people sailing around San Diego and Mission Bay don't know a thing about sail shape, performance, how to make the boat point. They don't use their outhaul, backstay adjuster, and never reef. They motor in perfect sailing conditions - with their sails still rolled and the main with its cover on. They don't move their genoa cars. They don't have a tuned rig. They are dragging fenders or a big inflatable WITH the outboard on it. They don't know how to tack their boats quickly. Sails are sheeted in tight while running downwind.

I can pass on any point of sail most any boat under 30 feet (unless they are motoring), and outpoint most boats (people also don't know about how to steer upwind - scalloping, pointing up in gusts, etc.). Of course, these people aren't racing, they are just going for a casual cruise with friends. I love passing (to windward) big beautiful boats with a crew of 5 and that are over canvassed and rounding up when I have a reef in my main and the small headsail on and am sailing alone (and a fish on).

Dingies excepted, I've had those Melges and Laser guys blast by me like I was standing still. Also multihulls - can't even get close to the tri boat I see out here (he also has mylar sails).

Most of these folks would have been better off to buy a small C25, learn to sail, and then move to their gold-platers. The C25, with it's small and exposed outboard forces you to sail the boat. The older, more beaten up boats that get out a lot are much harder for me to pass.

Hopefully, we will have a new C250 WB here to join Fleet 7 for July 4th. We will see how she does against the C25. I know I can pass all the C250 rental boats easily.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 16:57:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Let's not get carried away here, a C25 or 250 is alot of things, but it is not others, like a race boat or a ocean crosser. It is a fun boat that can occasionally win a race (if the competition is light) but let's be real, we will never beat a J(name your size) unless it has a hole in it, and although I have never sailed one, I cannot even think of running with a Beneteau 32. I like to play around on Wednesday night to, but let's be serious. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I know it's hard to believe, but the first time I raced my C-25 (non-spinnaker) last year, I beat three well-sailed J-24s flying spinnakers across the finish line by more than two minutes. (On this forum, I previously posted a link to the race results on my club's website, to prove that I didn't just make it up.)

This year I have only raced my boat once, and beat one spinnaker-flying J24 scratch, but was beaten by two others.

I've been skippering a friend's J24 this year. Last weekend we had a 2-race mini regatta. Four J24s were racing. We won the first race by a one-boat margin. In the second race, we crossed the finish line ahead of the second place J24 by a distance of about one-fourth of the total length of the race course. It was a windward/leeward race, and we outpointed the others and maintained higher speed all along the windward leg, and walked away from them on the leeward leg. We tacked on their wind whenever we could, to slow them down, and we forced them to make extra tacks. We powered our sails up and down with every puff and lull. As we neared the windward mark, we found a little windshift that allowed us to fetch the mark in a shorter distance and with fewer tacks than our opponents. On the downwind leg, we rode a strong puff down the east side of the lake, instead of running the rhumb line down the middle, like the rest of them, and, when the wind died, we reached for the finish line at higher speed. Even though those four J24s are one-design, and all immaculately prepared to race, that doesn't mean they are going to all hit the finish line at about the same time.

We have 4-5 Capri 26s and 2-3 S2 7.9s that race at our lake, and I can't remember the last time any of them have beaten my C25 to the finish line.

Because of the complexity of our sport, there is enormous latitude for skill to trump boatspeed. Golfers don't hit a hole-in-one every time they play, and we don't win like that every time, but when you're "hot," it's amazing what can be done with our humble little cruiser/racers.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 17:13:31

Well said, Steve!

Derek

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 22:41:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Well said, Steve!

Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...and just what I tried to say (but with much more credibility).

As they say at the U. of MD, "Fear the turtle!"

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/16/2004 22:43:21

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2004 : 23:52:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lancej
 Let's not get carried away here, a C25 or 250 is alot of things, but it is not others, like a race boat or a ocean crosser. It is a fun boat that can occasionally win a race (if the competition is light) but let's be real, we will never beat a J(name your size) unless it has a hole in it, and although I have never sailed one, I cannot even think of running with a Beneteau 32. I like to play around on Wednesday night to, but let's be serious. Lance
85 FK/SR
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tough room huh Lance.

Edited by - on

lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 06:13:01

My tennis coach once said in regards to buying a good tennis racket that a bad tennis player with the best racket in the world can get beaten by a good tennis player with a snowshoe. I guess I may have been overstating things to say that the only J we will ever beat would have to have a hole in it.
But all things being equal (and they never are) a J(pick your size) is just a faster boat. I'm not saying a better boat, just designed for different things. Aspect ratio, hull shape, ect, they all matter in large amounts here.
I love, love, love my C25, but have you guys ever sailed a J24 or 22? Worlds apart in terms of windward performance, acceleration, ect. Mabey my C25 is a pig, but I cannot imagine outrunning a J24 with it.
I don't think I can win this argument here.

Thanks,

Lance
85 FK/SR

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 09:39:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">have you guys ever sailed a J24 or 22? Worlds apart in terms of windward performance, acceleration, ect.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Offhand, I don't know what the waterline length is for a J24, but I do know that one of the C25s speed secrets is that, for a 25 foot boat, it has a fairly long waterline length.

Beating to windward, I can usually make my C25 point as high and foot as fast as the Js, even though my sails are plain dacron and theirs are laminated. (Four of the J24s at my lake are now being skippered by past club champions, myself included.) In the only time I raced my C25 this spring, we crossed tacks with the lead J24 about 2/3 of the way up the windward leg, sometimes ducking astern of the J, and at other times, making the J duck astern of us. We didn't get beaten in that race because the C25 couldn't keep up with the J. We got beaten because I made two bad tacking decisions, and lost a lot of distance that I couldn't make up.

Once, my C25 has been in the lee bow position of a Hobie 33 (owned and sailed by our local sailboat dealer and a past club champion), and she persistently pointed high enough to force the Hobie to tack.

With its lighter weight, a J24 can accelerate faster than a heavy C25, but acceleration isn't as much of a factor in moderate to heavy air, and it isn't as much of a factor if you don't let the C25 de-celerate. Every time you pinch to windward, or heel excessively, or luff your sails, or make an uncoordinated tack, the boat de-celerates, and it takes time to accelerate back up to speed. If you have a heavy boat that doesn't accelerate well, you have to take special care to not let it decelerate any more than absolutely necessary. The way you do that is to concentrate on smooth helmsmanship and to pay constant attention to sail trim. In the article that I posted on the racing section of this website, I called it "dying from a thousand paper cuts." A person who has a boat that doesn't suffer from deceleration doesn't pay as close attention to the problem as one who does. That's how you beat a "faster" boat. You make the most of what your boat does well, you minimize the effect of what it doesn't do well, and you trust that the guy with the tricked out racing boat is missing some of the finer points. You also look for "opportunities" to pull yourself up by your bootstraps on the racecourse. An "opportunity" is a favorable wind shift that enables you to sail a shorter distance or to sail at a faster slant toward your destination, or a strong localized puff that others don't see or can't get to. A C25 that is booming along on a strong puff can gain an enormous amount of ground on a J24 that is slatting in a lull.

I'm not saying the C25 is the equal of the J24 in terms of overall performance. What I'm saying is that it's good enough to be competitive with them, and to beat them with a little hard work, skill and luck. Some boats couldn't compete with J24s under any circumstances.

In the 1950's, Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile. I've heard it said that the 4 minute barrier had never been broken because everyone believed it couldn't be broken. Roger Bannister was the first runner who believed he could break it. After he led the way, a lot of runners broke it, because they knew it could be broken. If you think your boat is a pig, and can't imagine ever beating a J24 with it, the chances are that you never will. Ya gotta believe...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 09:42:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lancej
 Mabey my C25 is a pig, but I cannot imagine outrunning a J24 with it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hey, this is fun, isn't it?

I'll present the opinion that, especially in heavy air, a well-prepared and sailed C-25 can beat an average J-24 (boat and crew), consistently. My experience there is one-design racing in an Ensign, a classic 23-footer. The yacht club here raced three fleets on the same course, with staggered starts: J-24s, Sonars, and then Ensigns. The theory was that each fleet would pull away from the one behind it. Most of the time, it worked that way... But on really heavy days, the top 4-5 Ensigns would sail all the way through the Sonar fleet and beat half of the J-24s to the line. The light hulls appeared to be at a disadvantage in the big chop. (The Js up front were probably hoping the race would end QUICKLY--before they got caught, too!) In light air, the Js and Sonars look like they're running engines as they pass my C-25(SR) on their way to or from the course, but as the wind picks up, we look much more even. I don't know the LWL comparisons, but hull speeds must be comparable, and the J doesn't plane upwind. I haven't sailed one, but I've sailed things that out-accelerate them by a lot...

I'll put a small wager on Steve or Derek--as long as they're not up against J-24 national champs!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 09:50:19

It's been pretty well established on SF Bay that on days with heavy chop the crab crushers can be competitive (or even beat) the lighter 'racing' designs. Flat water, it's no contest and the racers do a horizon job on the heavier boats.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 10:36:56

Right. One day going North towards Bay Bridge had to cross thru a line of racers. Wound up pulling alongside and telling them I wanted to pass thru but they were going too slow. I finally had to fall off to let them pass so I could scoot thru the line.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2004 : 20:20:44

"Wound up pulling alongside and telling them I wanted to pass thru... "

ROFL... that musta put a burr under their blankets.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2004 : 08:50:33

Last night we had an experience that drove home the Bristle/Milby school of thought. Our Thursday night races are not handicapped. Its first over the line with three classes - big boats with chutes, litte boats with chutes, and white sails. We sail white sails b/c I don't own a chute. Its mostly a training exercise The class was populated by us, and a bunch of J's including a 42, 46, 32, and a 30 - and some other boats. We had a good start, right end of the line, on the gun, but had to tack to port to clear the J46 that hit the pin and got stuck.

In extremely light air everyone stayed left, we went right, and caught a shift. We beat all of them to the weather mark. Their boat speeds were well in excess of ours but they had to sail twice the distance. I'd like to claim brilliant tactics but it was really just that tack to get clear followed by my reluctance to tack more than necessary in light air that did it.

Naturally, we got toasted on the run by everyone but th J32. We managed to stay in his way well enough to beat him to the line - but we really worked at blocking him.

Point - luck (in this case) or skill can make these boats competitive. As far as the J24 issue - we can hang with and pass them upwind without a lot of trouble in anything over 8 or 10 knots. Downwind - they're gone.

jwa

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2004 : 00:17:16

This shot was taken in the 4th race and the next boat was a good 200 yards behind us,
Steve

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2004 : 10:00:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ssteakley
 ...and then I beat every single boat across the line by a very wide margin and was 1st across the line in the next 4 races...even the Beneteau 32's....
Steve
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just another advantage of those quiet, smooth, smokeless, high-thrust 4-strokes!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/19/2004 : 10:53:42

The secret weapon is that blue Bimini sail...

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2004 : 19:51:47

No, his secret weapon is that I taught him how to do a controlled round-up!! Gets him a boat length closer to weather every time!

And those WK C250's sure can round-up!
Derek

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2004 : 20:12:02

Went out yesterday for GOMRA Pilot Race (PHRF). Learned that especially in light air, stragtegic decisions cary the day. Especially sailing to and then in the wind. Sailing a lot more distance is ok if everyone on the rhumb line isn't sailing at all. Although I screwed up the last leg, we hung with and were occasionally ahead of much faster boats in boat for boat terms. After 10 miles of a 13 mile course around the bay ,including reaching, running, and beating legs, we were ahead of a J42, a J30, and an Ericsson 27 (less surprised about the Ericsson). They were being sailed ok in terms of trim - but not well in terms of position relative to the wind patches and the tidal current. The J42 and Ericsson got away from us but we beat the J30 to the finish.

The real victory of the day was around mile 6. We had gotten left for dead when I mistook a tidal rip for a wind line and went way off course. We rounded the mark at the end of that leg 10 minutes off the second to last boat. We caught the three boats ahead of us on the run by sailing really high angles and jibing back and forth.

I'm not pretending to be a great sailor, but employing the tips put forth on this board works, at least for us - and demonstrates that these goofy little boats have what it takes.

Of course now I'm thinking about what we could have done sailing the same course in a J105 . . .

Justin

Edited by - on

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