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I've had just about enough of this s&*t

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/07/2003 : 12:20:52

After fixing an incorrectly installed leaking cubbyhole in the cockpit (and modifying the boat so the water did not end up in the quarter berth) and reinstalling an incorrectly installed leaking head port, I was still getting fresh water in the bilge, not a little, quarts to a gallon......after 1:Filling the water tank, or 2 Sailing in heavy seas.

So today after installing the fresh water pump (it works great, I will update the "Galley Faucet" post later) I exposed the entire fresh water system and hung a hose in the filler hole.

There is a ^$%#*&()* hole in the filler tube

It was punctured by the bottom left screw of the little fabric pouch at the forward end of the V, which was protruding through the fiberglass.

I now have nothing good to say about Catalina's Quality Control. I am pi&&ed!!!!!!!

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Lady Kay IV, Dragonfly 25 # 54 Former C30#618-C250WB#618-C42#76

Edited by - Oscar on 11/07/2003 12:50:32

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 12:46:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 

There is a ^$%#*&()* hole in the filler tube

I now have nothing good to say about Catalina's Quality Control. I am pi&&ed!!!!!!!
Oscar<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You are beautiful when your angry

Oh wait, I forgot, your a dude. Never mind.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/07/2003 12:47:04

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 13:20:20

Thank you for calling, but Oscar has retired to his studio for a much needed cup of Earl Grey followed by a session with his yoga master.

Ohmmm...

We feel your pain, brother.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 18:06:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I now have nothing good to say about Catalina's Quality Control. I am pi&&ed!!!!!!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you have ever ventured over to the C25 forum and read the topics there you would realize that your concerns about "Catalina's Quality Control" isn't anything new.

Most of us C25 owners are quite familar with the, shall we say, somewhat interesting construction techniques/design decisions that Catalina Yachts built into their boats. From the infamous to-hulls to the useless icebox. The list of things is almost endless,...port mounted outboard, cast aluminum spreader brackets, closed turnbuckles, stem fitting, leaking windows, wiring in the deck core, splitting rudders, inadequate gudgeons,...etc. This is why there is a very lucrative upgrade/repair kit market for the C25 (with Catalina Direct cornering the market).

I think the design/construction issues that C25's and C250's have, are a result of Catalina Yacht's primary goal of providing affordable boats to the masses. Yes,...I AGREE...for our hard earned money we should expect and get a quality built product, but expectations should be tempered with the fact that Catalina's aren't Swans or Hinckley's.

Just take a deep breath and go sailing. It always puts my mind in the right place.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 18:50:18

I'm not expecting a Swan or a Hinckley...... It's all light and lightly equipped. No problem there, that's indeed what you pay for, I know that.

The gripes I have are about things could have been done right with the same materials in the same amount of time, and avoided a lot of needless frustration.

Caring does not have to cost more.There are numerous companies out there that provide value AND consistency.

Nuf' said. I will go sailing as soon as the kids and I are off on the same days, which is not easy to do.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:42:11

Oscar you are not alone. I had same problem, discovered it a few months after I bought Tropical Sleigh. I complained to my dealer who ended up sending out a mechanic, and he replaced the water fill tube. He said this wasn't the first one he had fixed.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 10:56:11

I do not think Swan or Hinckley has ever made a 25' sailboat probably because they could never make money in that price/size range. There are some 25' sailboats that cost more than Catalinas though. I visit the Seward forum frequently and they have some pretty big problems with there boats too. Like cracking bulkheads poor pointing ability and there list goes on and on. I have a cousin in New England with a Hunter 260 which cost quite a bit more than our stock 250's. After his insurance company has shelled out ~$20,000.00 to repair cracks in the hull @ the CB connection, they have notified him that his boat is considered totaled and will not pay any more. He still has the boat and the cracks.

I guess my point is you can pay more but, I do not think you will get a better product in our size boats. I am not real pleased with Catalina but, I still think given the other choices Catalina has the best product with fewer big large $$$ problems and tries to handle complaints.

Take deep breaths Oscar and count to 10.

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 11/08/2003 10:58:31

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:10:53

One, two, three, four, seven, eight, ten.

So what you're telling me is that I should not get aggravated when I see shoddy workmanship. When, again, with the same amount of money and time it could have been done right. That, my friend, will be the day they throw a hand full of worm poop on the lid of my box. For I try to do things right, and it requires total committment in mind, body and spirit.

That Catalina is the least of the offenders is known to me. After all I bought the blasted thing, and in spite of the "minor" irritations I do not regret doing so.

However if we, the customer, don't hold the fire under their, the manufacturers, gluteus maximus lit, it will only get worse. We have an obligation here.

That, or build my own boat, in which case I will only have myself to blame for errors. I have been toying with the thought. Even have some sketches. 30 something water ballast ketch. Cold molded, standing height below........three private "state rooms". The question is, do I want to commit to a three to five year project, or will they (the Admirality) have me committed???

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/09/2003 21:15:47

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:15:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 One, two, three, four, seven, eight, ten.

That, or build my own boat, in which case I will only have myself to blame for errors. I have been toying with the thought. Even have some sketches. 30 something water ballast ketch. Cold molded, standing height below........three private "state rooms". The question is, do I want to commit to a three to five year project, or will the have me committed???

Oscar

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Fero cement, takes a kickin' and keeps on floatin'

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:17:10

Is that why there are so many of them, in various stages of completion, on the market for pennies on the dollar?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

Bob Vick
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:37:44

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
Oscar,

I have a bone dry C-22 down here in Texas we will trade you straight up, built back in 1985 when the quality was up. Heck I will even do the driving for the flip just to make it fair.

Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
C 22 #13059 "Over Keel"

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:38:26

Oscar: I think it would be nice if Mr. Butler had the time or courage to personally answer some of the issues on the forum...I think Mark Cuban the owner of the Dallas Mavericks makes an effort to answer email that fans send to him and take their suggestions and make comments...and "heck" he has no control over the job his folks do for him...he can only trade them or fire them...I can't believe that Mr. Butler doesn't have time to read and comment so we can hear about things from the source....

Dan #727

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:55:17

Actually, Mr. Butler personally handles much of the warrantee issues. And that is part of the problem, or strategy, not sure which. He doesn't like e-mail, but still sends letters. It all takes a long time.....I believe he is well intended, but I think it sometimes all gets a little out of hand.
The rudder issue has been handled by the underlings, They seem to prefer the "dazzle them with bs" routine.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a bone dry C-22 down here in Texas<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not getting much rain lately?

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 21:56:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">That Catalina is the least of the offenders is known to me. After all I bought the blasted thing, and in spite of the "minor" irritations I do not regret doing so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I couldn't agree more thats why were in the same boat

.

I do think this forum is their worst nightmare. We can discuss these issues enmasse. I also think we are taking them to task and holding them accountable. My warantee ran out last year but my rudder is now in CA. The 25 owners can't fight the fight anymore but we can and I think still do!

Oscar you have had your boat in some pretty rough weather, Arlyn has and I have read some accounts of others that have also experienced nasty conditions (I think it was Dietimer {sp} that posted his account of getting knocked down that convinced me to buy a Catalina). Sea Major has seen 4'waves and shrugged it off without even getting us wet in the cockpit. My point is that the boat will get you there and back (maybe not allowing as much stupidity as say a Cape Dory) and everything else is quality control.

Our problems (so far) are not nearly as bad as brand new gel coat spider cracks. Now there is a battle. Where do we draw the line and say Buy a Hunter

to all those newbies that ask. Did I write that outloud, sorry I could never really say that with feeling.

I know and helped somebody who made a ~50' ferro cement sailboat it took him five long years just to launch it. It was the second boat he made and really took a toll on him and his family. You did the right thing by buying one.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">throw a hand full of worm poop on the lid of my box. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I also did some work with earthworms at UK (go big blue) and I don't think they went down six feet

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 11/09/2003 22:05:00

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 22:00:34

After the fact editing........

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I also think we are taking them to task and holding them accountable.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Se my post under "rudder cracks" about where I think we could (should) take that....

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/09/2003 22:05:14

Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 18:48:58

I've been reading all of the horror stories, and Oscar's story about the floded quarter berth has struck home. I've found mine damp the past few visits. I have'nt tracked it down yet but it's not my holding tank so I would assume that it is coming from the coaming or arund the wheel steering gear. My questing as far as holding Catalina to task is if they have been notified of this issue and the fix should'nt it be handled as a waranty repair for the boats under waranty, and as a recall for those not under waranty. Being a novice I'm a bit leery about drilling holes in my boat.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 20:27:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">as a recall for those not under waranty<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe it should be, although probably prohibitively expensive, and thus carried forward to prices of the new boats etc. etc. They could also send a letter to all owners explaining with drawing, so you can do it, or maybe offering to do it if you bring yours in....(it doen't take long...but that too would cost). I guess in the end, that is what Mainsheet and this forum are for, and that's why Catalina buys your first year membership....

Greg,

See my e-mail to you. You can try and have Catalina drill the holes, or you can wait 'till nationals and have someone help you. However, I have to ask: is the dampness in the back of the cushions, or in the front? There is also water infiltration through capillary action around the edge of the hatch, which "rains" down on the forward part of the aft berth. The solution to this is the canvas hatch cover discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Oscar, in Jacksonville, making bu's....

Edited by - Oscar on 02/14/2004 20:41:48

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2004 : 22:38:08

Oscar: I've learned from the dealer who sold my boat to me that Catalina doesn't pay the first year of Association Dues, which they claim to do and which the Association is lead to believe by someone.

The dealer stated to me that the dealers have to pay the Association dues, and he in turn charged me $15.00 on my contract of the $20.00 he has to pay to Catalina. So I guess some dealers pick up the tab, and some pass it along to the boat buyer. According to my dealer I'm the only person who has ever complained to him about having to pay the Association Dues. I guess right and wrong doesn't enter into this situation.

When I called it to his attention he wrote to me and said he would refund the money, but now he has changed his mind given my comments about his not inspecting my boat and selling me a damaged boat that were sent to Frank Butler, with photographic proof.

This is how a dealer stands behind you and represents you when you buy a boat

Dan #727

Edited by - on

528
Navigator

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USA
181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 10:50:20

I also had a leaking water supply fill tube. It was the smallest of holes being punctured by a shard of fiberglass where the tube turns from vertical to horizontal. A suprising amount of water would enter the forward bilge. It took two days to isolate the leak. I had to remove all the tube mounting straps and access the area through the forward inspection port.

As well, I had water enter the back of the boat through the engine control cables through hull compression fitting. I believe the steering boot was also a contributor. I sealed the two areas with flexible silicone and the aft bulkhead area has been bone dry ever since.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2004 : 10:56:10

Dan,

I think your dealer is intend on blowing a false wind your way. He is abiding the survivors rule of business....deny deny deny.

You should talk to Cliff about this and I think he will verify to you the process that Catalina uses to provide the first year membership. The dealer is involved in that process... but not monetarily. Here is what was explained to me by Craig Osterloh a previous treasure.

Catalina credits the association for every new boat it produces. The dealer when a boat is sold, provides Catalina with the owner information which is in turn provided to the association, at which time the association adds the person to the membership and Mainsheet list to receive the first year free which was previously paid for when Catalina produced the boat.

There was a time when the association was pretty deep in red ink because of this process because we had operated on the funds which came from Catalina for new boats built, but the process of actually providing the memberships service and Mainsheet wasn't being observed because the association didn't get names for a great many of the boats built. The association then actually got funds for which it never had to produce a service or for which the service was pending a boat that hadn't sold.

I find it hard to believe that your dealer was feeding funds back to Catalina for this...

This is not to say that the process hasn't changed... who knows? But, in the light of the warranty service charges, your dealer has shown some shady colors.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 19:42:45

I would agree about Dan's dealer and his business practices, but Dan and I have had many conversations about this issue so I pressed my dealer on it. It took three EM's to drag it out of him, but he did in fact have to send the membership fee to Catalina. The one thing I can say about my dealer is he is a straight shooter and has backed my play against Catalina on every item since the first disaster with # 734.

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 20:12:49

Jerry & Arlyn: I did get chance to ask Cliff and he told me basically what you've indicated, that Catalina sends checks to the Association as soon as a new boat is purchased or delivered. But it seems to me after all of the checking I and others have been able to do, Catalina must in some way put that expense on the dealer, and perhaps they have some internal policy that would let a dealer pass along costs to a buyer. This information does cast a cloud, for me at least, as to how benevelent Catalina Yachts really is in all of this.

My dealer first agreed to refund the $15.00 to me, then after a phone call with Frank Butler and the dealer in which I wouldn't agree to their solution regarding the damage Catalina allowed to happen to my boat, the dealer changed his mind and re-nigged on his earlier written statement about returning the money he charged for the Association Memebership. Where I come from this is just a silly effort at retaliation on the part of the dealer, and nothing I didn't expect given my total experience with my purchase.

I do find it odd that Catalina Yachts is taking credit for paying for a new owner's memebership when in fact the dealer or the buyer pays for it in the end. I guess the dealer could be considered a part of Catalina Yachts in this case. But it is at least bad form for a dealer to pass along that cost in the purchase contract. In some sense it takes away a person's freedom to decide if they want to belong to the Association. Don't get me wrong, I would join if I had to pay the first year's dues, but I don't like the fact that Catalina Yachts is taking credit for being to giving with my money.

You know if the guy needed the $15.00 to put food on the table I would have given him a $20.00 bill at the time and still paid my own Association dues...might be a little tougher to do so now with what I've learned recently, but I imagine I would bring myself to do it.

I'm very surprised at the amount of shade that has been uncovered that seems to be going all the way to the top of the tree...it is truly an unfortunate thing to learn, and even more unfortunate and frustrating given the tactics I've been exposed to recently.

It is really too bad that Frank Butler doesn't have someplace on the forum where questions can be put to him directly to him and answer's posted on the forum. It would certainly raise my level of trust in what is really going on. I feel sorry for the future new buyer who doesn't happen onto those good dealers out there who support their customers no matter what the circumstances, even if it points to them or Catalina.

I found the dealer who sold me my boat when he emailed me because of a visit to Catalina's web site and a request for a brochure on the C250 WB & WK. My advice to future buyers is to interview the dealer as you would interview an attorney in taking a case for you....

Thanks guys for your help and comments!

Dan #727

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 21:36:23

Getting thngs fixed under warranty takes a lot of time, pictures, letters, email and persistance. I did have to seal the cockpit combing cubby hole storage areas so that they didn't leak. So far I have mannaged to get the rudder repaired under warranty. I did send it UPS to Catalina $50. Catalina did a good and speedy repair on it.

. The dealer is supposed (Catalina reimbursement) to repair the combing step pad area cracks that started showing up at the end of the summer

. In all it's not much worse than getting any warranty work done on a car, appliance or a new home. Hopefully I will have a nice boat when it is all over.

Edited by - frankr on 02/17/2004 21:39:10

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 22:26:29

Frank: What model year is your boat? Did the cracks in the gel coat just appear or do you think there was a causual agent for the damage?

The Warranty works better if you are close to your dealer or they are willing to take a personal interest in your problems.

When damage occurrs before your boat was ever delivered, then it is a different story and not a warranty issue. And when they blame you for damage you can prove you didn't do, and after being provided with proof still insist that you caused the damage, then it becomes a bit more of a problem.

I'm glad you were able to get things resolved...but those cracks look pretty bad and they go into the non-skid.

Dan #727

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2004 : 23:27:44

I am the second owner of Hull # 385 and had several gel spider cracks like those pictured above in the curved areas of my 250. I have begun to repair them and they are not difficult to do. You take a Dremmal tool with a grinder attachement and bevel out the spider cracks, than just get a pint of white gelcoat/hardner from Boatworld or Westmarine and follow the directions. It takes about 3-4 applications for each area and it is good as new. The temp has to be 60-80 but after buffing out with a good polishing compound and wax it looks brand new.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2004 : 08:28:13

Mine is a 2003 wing keel #690. The boat has never been ran aground, in any collision, never out in over 22 kts of wind and always in the water from delivery until pulled for winter storage this past fall. My main consern is that these cracks are larger than the normal spider cracking I've seen on older boats and they all appear around the combing step indentation areas on both sides of the boat. No cracking anywhere else - yet.

Edited by - on

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