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Jack lines: inside or out?

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/04/2003 : 15:22:07

I plan on sailing to Nantucket this weekend, and the forecast is for 15 knot winds and five to six-foot swells from the Atlantic Hurricane that is well out to sea. So I will be in harness, and will rig my jacklines. And I wanted to check your collective and impressive wisdom:

I have a friend who always rigs his jacklines inside the stanchions and lifelines. He says that rigged that way they do a better job of keeping you on the boat in the event of a fall or an unexpected roller. I have always rigged mine outside on the theory that if you are solo and go O/B you want to be able to slide back to the transom (to a boarding ladder) while remaining hooked in.

So which is it? Inside or outside? What do most people do?

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 15:45:36

I run mine inside with a very short tether. If the weather is rough I don't want to be anywhere near going over the side.

I have seen people do both and Arlyn for one recommends have a long and a short tether for both options.

Either way, be safe and have a fun trip.

Clif Thompson
Treasurer C-25/250 National Association.
svMoxie '81 25 sk

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 16:05:10

Your question was my question... it startled me when I realized that getting a tether and jacklines wasn't enough.

paste from a post I made on the Trailer Sailor forum today

I think this issue is a little bit like the lightning issue, one has to committ to a discipline one way or the other. I tend to think trailer sailers ought not to follow our blue water friends, primarily because of the size of the boats. A tether short enough to prevent going over, would not allow movement.

Therefore, I don't have any expectations of a tether keeping me on the boat. If it does fine, but if it doesn't, I don't accept the blue water attitude that "your dead". I view the concept of a tether on a trailer sailer then to be a device to keep me with the boat rather than on it. Don't misunderstand this statement, I would do everything possible to stay on the boat.

Trailer sailers have a unique character of their own. They are smaller and more tender than our ocean going friends. Also, most of them have a swim ladder or some place other than the rail (likely impossible) to get back aboard. And, there is a lot more solo sailing on trailer sailors than on blue water boats.

For this reason, I share Rod's sentiment towards jack lines that stretch... mine is made of the most stretchy 5/8 inch line I could find and is routed so as to allow the full length (both sides of boat) of the line to stretch and bring up the load. If I go overboard, I don't want the shock load of a no stretch jack line which may knock the breath from me, or even cause an injury that reduces my ability to get myself back aboard. My jacklines also run inside the shrouds and stanchions so as not to impede sail handling.

I also tend to think "lines led aft for single handing" is a pipe dream if its believed that they will prevent ever having to go forward. Furlers foul, furling lines foul, sheets foul, whisker poles need set/taken in, etc. Lines led aft should be viewed then as reducing rather than eliminating going forward.

So, the tether and jack lines should allow that to be done in a reasonable way, I don't think a jack line outside the stanchions is reasonable. So, this requires some thought to prevent a similar fate as Skylark pointed out above. (man died of drowning because he was over the rail and hung on his tether)

To prevent being hung, I added a very simple "overboard tether" as Rod pointed out that allows getting to the swim ladder.

http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/tether.html

I also tend to think that for many who sail with a crew, they should do so with an attitude that they are solo. While some of the crew that I sail with, I have full confidence in their ability to provide support to me if overboard, I don't have that belief in others and really don't want to put that kind of burden on them.

I tell my wife... I'm prepared to get back aboard without your help, mostly what I would want from you is to make that job easier for me by stopping or slowing the boat.

Don't misunderstand, I have no doubts that a boat moving near hull speed would present challenges in getting aboard... I'll stay aboard if at all possible... but I'm not putting all my marbles in that basket or accepting that to go overboard is certain death. I rarely am forward under full speed... so percentages IMHO are in my favor.

My point is simple...a tether and jacklines shouldn't be the end of the safety thought process...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 09/04/2003 16:19:06

Edited by - arlyn stewart on 09/04/2003 17:03:59

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 16:32:00

I have only seen and used them inside.
IMO you want a long unobstucted run so you can move quickly and freely. If they were outside I think the tether would get hung up at each stantion.
Having two or adjustable tethers is good idea. I use a climbimg trick called a "quick draw" that lets me have a short or long tether with just a quick adjustment. The tether is a long loop, by doubling it over and clipping it, it's 1/2 the length while in the cockpit then, when let out all the way, it's long enough to stand up to go forward.

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 16:50:11

I clip my 6 ft tether to an eye at the base of the mast. I clip on when leaving the cockpit. I feel 100% more secure and sure-footed when clipped on. If I fall, I want to stay on the boat. I do not have a ladder.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 17:52:44

I think I'm with John on this one.....although I must admit never having tried putting them outside...

I got two bright yellow high strength flat woven lines with sown on snap shackles on e-bay.....$15 or so each. They are 15 feet and fit perfectly between the bow pulpit and the stanchions abeam the companion way.

Hank on before leaving the cockpit, freedom to move all the way forward. I use SOSpenders with integral harness for maximum mobility, and I wear them a lot...rule of thumb is that they come on when the reef goes in, jacklines on with the second one. Also, this way you can't end up in the water with a tether, but without a life vest!!!

The tether is fairly long. It gives me room to move around, and allows me to DISCONNECT myself if I end up in the water, and work my way to the back, and not end up hanging halfway up the topsides with my whole weight on the tether.

The open stern of the 250 should allow me to hoist myself back on even with an inflated vest and lots of wet clothing.

Finally, If you go over and then hang yourself on your safety equipment......it was your time to go. Period

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake:
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/chesapeake.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Oscar on 09/04/2003 17:59:15

Edited by - on

John G-
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793 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 18:10:11

A couple of additional thoughts.
I found Velcro tie wraps and have secured the swim ladder with one. It holds the ladder up fine but takes very little effort to bring the ladder down from the water.
Also my rule is the inflatable vest goes on when (just before) I reef. Mine has a built in harness. No exceptions.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 20:42:14

1 more idea for consideration:
Practice going overboard with crew onboard & while tethered to a jackline and see what happens....this may be the most valuable piece of advise ??
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK <img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 21:10:00

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and see what happens <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Kids laughing, wife shaking her head..........Scratch up the topsides, get bruised?......hmmmm<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 09/04/2003 21:16:13

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 22:02:36

Okay, I think I have been persuaded. Also had a chat with friend this evening...

I have twenty-five foot one inch flat woven jacklines that hook onto my bow cleats via carbiners and tie off on the stern cleats. When the weather gets rough, I don an inflatable life vest and a full harness which has two tethers (one three feet, the other six feet) both attached to the harness via a carabiner. With two tethers you are always attached to something. I have serious padeyes in the cockpit and at the mast base and the bow (just in case). If I go over while solo and cannot get back on board, I suppose I can always, in desperation, unhook the tethers from the harness and just float around until someone comes to the rescue (we're not talking mid-Atlantic here, friends!)

Come to think of it, a guy was rescued late last summer in Nantucket Sound. He had left his sailboat involuntarily, and it took them six hours to find him after his sailboat was located running around in circles on the motor. He suffered lots of jellyfish stings. He was not wearing any clothing. It is not recommended to sail naked in jelly fish-infested waters...!

Dave on "Wood Duck" (#2616)

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 22:04:05

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
1 more idea for consideration:
Practice going overboard with crew onboard & while tethered to a jackline and see what happens....this may be the most valuable piece of advise ??
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
 Thanks but NO!!
Let’s face it. If you go overboard while tethered it’s going to really hurt. If you’re lucky and grabbed something on the way over you might claw your way back on with a bump or two if not you’re going to go “Ker Thump Bump” quite a few times till you can reach something. On the plus side you will have a chance to get back on board IF you are still conscious.
Being tethered is not going to keep you safe, it will keep you near the boat and give you a chance. That’s all.
Remember “One hand for the boat. One hand for yourself.”
My advice is to stay on board.
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 22:08:51

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
When the weather gets rough, I don an inflatable life vest and a full harness which has two tethers (one three feet, the other six feet) both attached to the harness via a carabiner.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave - I (we) hope you meant snap shackle with lanyard instead of carabiner.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 22:17:32

Years ago I remember seeing a rig described that had a trailing line which on a tillered boat was held out of the way with shock cord, but if put under load, as by an overboard puller, would set the tiller hard down to bring the boat about, or heave it to. Thats all I remeber about it, might be useful to you offshore adventurers, ron srsk Orion sw FL

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/04/2003 : 23:49:10

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It is not recommended to sail naked in jelly fish-infested waters...! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Ah yes, the old jellyfish in the sensitive skin area......If my information is correct, that was also the reason these people refused to go swimming.........<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/iraqinavy2.jpg" border=0>

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 02:30:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>One more idea for consideration: Practice going overboard with crew onboard & while tethered to a jackline and see what happens....this may be the most valuable piece of advise??<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In a SailNet article about a harnesses and tethers, a non-profit sailing foundation tested 21 harnesses and 17 tethers. The following is what was said about the in-water portion of the test.

"...In the water, volunteers in harnesses were dragged astern from a boat at about 4 knots, as though they had slipped overboard while hooked on. This exercise tested comfort plus the wearers' ability both to reboard and to separate themselves from the boat if they believed they were at risk of drowning.

While all harnesses kept faces clear of the water at this modest speed, some funneled water into wearers' faces. None of the volunteer victims was able to climb back aboard unassisted..."

I believe this strengthens the argument for having a tether system that prevents you from going over the side in the first place, because as these testers found out they could not get back in the boat while being dragged at a modest 4 knots. Keep in mind that they were in a planned test environment with assistance at hand, and not in a frantic or semi-conscious state like one might be if they unexpectedly fell overboard.

Imagine being alone at night and trying to get back in a boat while being towed at 6 knots...now throw in the wind, seas, and cold water. This is why I believe a tether system should be designed to keep you on the boat.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 08:05:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Imagine being alone at night and trying to get back in a boat while being towed at 6 knots...now throw in the wind, seas, and cold water. This is why I believe a tether system should be designed to keep you on the boat.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Diddo. Bill Holcomb alludes to how difficult it can be getting back on board in his posting "In the Blink of an Eye" in the Adventures & Ships log section. I think Chapmans and several other references support right down the middle of the boat, for a continuous jackline.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 09:17:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think Chapmans and several other references support right down the middle of the boat, for a continuous jackline. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Y'all are making the point that concerns me the greatest... I doubt that such a design can be fitted to a boat our size. If it could, it would be so ugly and obtrusive that very few if any boats would be equipped with it. Even a rigid cable down the middle wouldn't prevent overboard using a six foot tether. Doubling back to three foot might work... but then how would the jack line be mounted? If heeling a lot, I double back and shorten my hookup to the windward jack line which reduces chances of going over the leeward side, but yet doesn't prevent going over the windward side.

A jackline and tether system to prevent overboard would be far too restrictive... the best hoped for is what we've all been doing... using one that reduces the odds, not preventing it. And... that's my point, I want plan if that happens.

<ul><li>Remain tethered to the boat </li><li>Have a swim ladder for boarding </li><li>Have a way to get to it </li></ul>

On a blue water boat... that's it... your dead. But that doesn't have to be the outcome on a boat our size with a good rigidly mounted swim ladder that can be dropped down from the water. It provides the capability other boats don't enjoy... but there has to be a plan to get to it.

Everything depends upon needs. I've made four 90-100 mile passages crossing Lake Huron. That distance of course requires night sailing. The water is cold... For all practical puposes, once was solo.

If the purpose of a tether and jackline is to obtain a sense of comfort... I hate that boats rocking.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
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USA
1767 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 09:50:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
When the weather gets rough, I don an inflatable life vest and a full harness which has two tethers (one three feet, the other six feet) both attached to the harness via a carabiner.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave - I (we) hope you meant snap shackle with lanyard instead of carabiner.

J.B. Manley
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why?

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 10:09:13

A carabiner won't allow the harness to be released with all that tension on it, so there won't be anyway to disengage from the jackline if hanging from the boat isn't working or has become more dangerous.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 12:36:29

A carabiner won't allow the harness to be released with all that tension on it, so there won't be anyway to disengage from the jackline if hanging from the boat isn't working or has become more dangerous.

J.B. Manley

Attempt at answer:

My harness came equipped with two carabiners, and I added a third (at the attatchment point of the tether to the harness, so I can quick-release from the tether if I need to). This may be an issue of verbiage, but I understand a snap shackle to be the type of quick-release shackle that attaches my vang to the boom and the mast, and which can be "snapped" off for use as a preventer, ot a hoist, or whatever you can dream up. I have not seen harnesses with snap shackles, but rather with 'biners. But maybe I am confusing my mountaineering self with my sailing self. A 'biner is easy to release one-handed when under tension, but it is secure enough so that a false movement won't unintentionally break it loose (it requires a quick twist and pull-back)--which could happen with the button on a snap shackle.

Dave on "Wood Duck" (#2616)

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 13:10:30

Dave,

I think your tether must look something like this, with two or three carabiners:
<img src="http://www.pyacht.net/online-store/graphics/WIC_7002.jpg" border=0>
Here is my tether, with the snap shackle and lanyard:
<img src="http://www.pyacht.net/online-store/graphics/WIC_ORC_BDA_Tether.gif" border=0>
I think that I would have significant difficulty releasing a carabiner with my 150 pounds hanging over the side or being towed at anything above one knot. Therefore, I decided to go with the snap shackle and lanyard so I could disengage from the jackline and tether, if need be. I also use an auto-inflate PFD with harness for the same reason.

My decision was based upon the previous thread [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3786"]Singlehanding Safely[/url].

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - Antares on 09/09/2003 13:11:23

Edited by - Antares on 09/09/2003 13:18:17

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