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Seaworthiness of the 250 water balast?

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Oneday
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 03/24/2022 : 16:18:01

I am presently the owner of a Catalina Capri 18. It has been a wonderful boat for most conditions. I would however like to have a boat with a little more room down below and one that is a little more capable when the weather kicks up. Does anyone know if the Catalina 250 wb will be significantly better in higher wind and waves than my 18? I am considering a 250wb right now. Thanks Dan

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/24/2022 : 19:26:50

C25s and C250s and most boats in that size range are designed for sailing in inland lakes and bays and places where you can quickly find shelter if the weather unexpectedly turns bad. By comparison with the C25, a C250 is lighter by design, so it can be towed by a less powerful tow vehicle. Consequently, when the wind pipes up, you need to reduce sail area to keep it on its feet. I have sailed them a little, but others on the forum have described sailing them in winds over 25 kts. IMO, it takes considerable skill and a strong stomach to sail any boat in this size range in winds over 25 kts, especially on a big bay or lake where waves can build over a long fetch. IMO, when sailed well, the C250 can be competitive with a C25.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/24/2022 : 19:31:08

Tell us a little more about the conditions you're concerned with... An early and long-time C-250 sailor and contributor here, Arlyn Stewart, sailed his C-250WB all over Lake Huron. Use our Search to look for the word "Huron" in All Forums, with Archived Posts checked and Forum User "Arlyn Stewart". There's a lot there from him... I think you'll get an idea.

Many say the C-250 WB is more tender than the wing keel since the ballast is higher in the hull, although Arlyn felt that the ballast tank, being spread more fore and aft than the wing keel, reduced fore-and-aft pitching in seas. But if you want seaworthyness, reports are the wing is stiffer (and has considerably more headroom below, BTW). In either case, we're talking about more than double the displacement and more than double the ballast of the Capri 18. I suspect you'll feel a substantial difference.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/24/2022 19:37:19

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/24/2022 : 19:39:13

I should add that a boat's capability when the weather kicks up has more to do with the sailor than with the boat. Does the sailor know when and how to reef the sails, how to trim the sails for strong winds, how to steer through chop, how to tune the rig so that the boat sails efficiently, and most importantly, when to lower the sails, start the motor and turn for home or for shelter. Know your boat's limitations, and your own.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

alippold
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/25/2022 : 05:03:20

I have been sailing my 250WB on Lake Michigan for the past 16 years. I love it but it is a tender boat compared to sailboats with deep keels. I primarily sail in Little Bay De Noc off of Green Bay...so not the main part of Lake Michigan. I have upgraded to a 135 head sail (with a furler) and a main with 2 reefs. I start reefing the headsail using the furler around 12 knots. I start reefing the main above 15 knots. I have sailed in 20 knot winds with the double reef in the main and just a small part of the headsail out. I practice reefing skills often so I can do it quickly.

I don't go out if the forecast is above 20 knots. I also avoid going out when we get larger waves (above 2 ft). I feel confident that I could make it to a port of refuge if I was caught out in strong weather using my engine and the reefed sails.

This may sound conservative to some but I am a 60+ woman frequently single handing.

Amber Waves

Oneday
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/27/2022 : 01:41:39

Thanks everyone! I sail in bays and harbors and in the Long Island Sound. It can get pretty crazy at times. I�m not looking to cross oceans. I�m looking for a notch more capable than my 18. Thanks again�Dan

k3fuller
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 03/28/2022 : 10:06:53

I agree with what others have said about them. I find my WB really likes 10-15 with two crew on board. More than that reefing is in order. My only complaint is the headroom on the WB. I'd like a boat I can stand up in, not one built for Hobbits but it's all I could do with the vehicle I had when I purchased her 5 years ago.

2004 250WB #781

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/28/2022 : 12:38:27

I�m a C25 sailor on Long Island Sound. I started out sailing a 16ft centerboarder that I had for years boating around Norwalk harbor, Milford and the Housatonic R, New Haven harbor, Old Saybrook and Fishers Island Sound. While the C25 is a stiffer boat than a C250WB, I�d say that I prefer a larger boat in poor conditions: when SE winds blow, LIS is quite unpleasant. NW gusts above 25 kts can make things unpredictable All in all, it�s best to hope for the the best but prepare for the.worst .

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Oneday
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/28/2022 : 14:35:01

I�m in Oyster bay. I have sailed my Capri 18 to Milford and then across the Sound to Port Jefferson and back:) Do you think I would be better off finding a C25 than going for the 250wb that I have found? Thanks Bruce

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 06:29:32

Yes

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 06:33:13

Wow! That�s some sailing! I never sailed my 16 fter across the Sound. If you�ve found a solid boat in good shape that you love, then go for it. The C25s will, by and large, be older boats than the C250. If it was well cared for by the previous owner, then the likelihood of serious problems down the line will be less.
If, however, a survey finds questions or problems with this boat, you may want to widen your search to include C25s, different style keel C250s, C27 or another well-kept sailboat.
I haven�t surveyed the post-COVID boat market supply, but if it�s anything like the past two years, go with a bird in the hand.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 06:38:26

Derek, that�s pretty definitive assertion. I have no experience with a C250 WB, what�s the downside?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 07:09:13

A big factor in your decision is what's available within your area. Finding a perfect boat in Kansas isn't going to do you any good. I'm in Glen Cove and when I was looking for my boat the pickings were slim for a C25 that was within sailing reach. I got lucky and found one in Madison Conn. that was well kept. We were able to sail her home in one day and had a great time doing it. I wouldn't ignore other boats like a C27 or O'Day 25 or even the 28 that is a very nice roomy boat but would probably have an inboard. I think your going to have to be flexible as to make and model but maybe you will get lucky like me and find your first pick that will be within reach. Good luck.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Oneday
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 07:12:15

I was very fortunate that during that trip the weather cooperated. It would be dangerous for me to think that would be the usual case:)

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 09:04:59

Look across the Sound on a day when the wind is 25+ out of the north or south, and I'd guess you'll see very few sailboats, and far fewer 25' sailboats.

A few years ago, I was towing my friend's boat with a broken rudder to our marina. A smallish storm with 25-30 kt winds appeared as we neared the marina. I anchored us outside until the wind subsided because I didn't think it was safe to enter with a boat in tow. While there, we watched a sailboat (about 26-27' fin keel) try to leave the marina. it was forced onto the rocks of the jetty by the strong wind and breaking waves at the entrance. When the wind is that strong, it is very challenging to just move a small sailboat out of its slip, through a narrow fairway and out an entrance channel, which might be on a lee shore and getting swept by breaking waves. In that particular case, even a big, diesel powered sailboat would have had great difficulty getting through those breaking waves.

My point is that a C250 or C25 will be more capable than your Capri 18, but not nearly as much as you hope. When the wind exceeds 25 kts, and you're sailing in waters where wind can come over a long fetch and
short, choppy waves can grow over about 3 feet, sailing becomes much more difficult. When the wind is at about 25-27 kts, that's when Annapolis area race committees are borderline to cancelling a race for classes in the 25' size range. Sailing on a small, sheltered, inland lake is very different from sailing on more open waters.

IMO, diesel powered sailboats over 30', with skilled skippers and crews, can begin to cope with those conditions, but bigger boats can handle them better.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 13:55:13

Bruce, I raced on Steve Steakley's C250WK and we had sails up as we left the marina. On clearing the docks the wind was a steady 10 k and we almost put a spreader in the water. Even with a reefed jib we did controlled roundups all the way to the weather mark.
On "TSU" we were once faced with a summer front that roared onto the lake at 35k gusting to 50 (actual measurement on RC's wind instrument). We survived that even with a 155 genoa and a full main. We were only about 100 yards from the finish and the RC cancelled the 2nd race. We dropped sails and motored back, and even with an 8 hp going full throttle we only made 1k against 3' waves.
Yes, even inland lakes can get very vicious at times. We always have at least a couple of those fronts every year.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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Response Posted - 03/29/2022 : 20:51:28

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

Bruce, I raced on Steve Steakley's C250WK and we had sails up as we left the marina. On clearing the docks the wind was a steady 10 k and we almost put a spreader in the water. Even with a reefed jib we did controlled roundups all the way to the weather mark.

I am sorry, but I have to comment. I absolutely love sailing my C250WK in a steady 10 knots. The boat is very much under control under all points of sail in these conditions. Maybe there are differences in configuration. I don't have a big jib. Mine is just 110%. I also have a 3rd Gen rudder and new sails. The new sails made a huge difference in how the boat feels especially in stronger wind. Maybe Steve's boat is one of the few tall rig C250WKs.

David Crosby "Small World"
'02 C250 WK #614

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 03/31/2022 : 07:54:28

I don't know whether it was a tall rig but it was sure tender! Steve sold it when he retired, bought a 42' and went cruising in the Caribbean. That experience on the 250 made me appreciate my 25 even more.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Buzz Maring
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Response Posted - 03/31/2022 : 08:10:44

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

I don't know whether it was a tall rig but it was sure tender!

I remember ... it was one of the few C250 tall rig wing keels that were built. I don't know how many Catalina built, but as I recall, they stopped making them because they were a handful when the wind piped up.

Buzz Maring

~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68
Lake Dallas, TX

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 03/31/2022 : 14:26:37

Thanks Buzz. That's a comforting thought.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/31/2022 : 16:04:32

It runs in my mind that a C250 TR won the C250 class in the 2004 C25/250 National Regatta, and its corrected time was close to the C25 winner's corrected time. I think that was a very light air regatta, which would have been ideal for a C250 TR.

In the 2003 National Regatta, I won the C25 TR class, and my total time for 5 races was 182:42. Bryan Beamer, sailing a C250 SR/WK, had a total time of 194:44. Bryan's total time was over 10 minutes faster than the next fastest boat in all 3 classes. The next fastest boat was Bill Meinert's C25 SR/SK, with a total time of 205:16.

The C250 is different from the C25. C25 sailors like to hoist as much sail area as possible. The C250 doesn't like a big sail area or excessive heeling, but if you sail it the way it likes to be sailed, the C250 is very nimble and quick.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/31/2022 16:09:21

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2022 : 09:16:29

I'm going back to questioning: What is it about your usage leads you to a water-ballast boat or particularly the C-250WB? The purpose of that design is reduced weight (draining the water) and draft (the centerboard) for trailering. If getting her on and off a trailer on ramps with some frequency isn't your plan, and you're sailing in fairly big water, the C-250WB is designed for somebody else. The C-250WK is closer, and for a little more stiffness, the C-25 (and others like it) is even better. The C-25 is an older boat, but both are now old enough that the maintenance is more of a factor than age in picking a boat. In salt water, most should have replacement standing rigging. C-25s before about 1987 (?) need replacement rudders--the originals up to about then are wood-cored. The swing keel model (1500 lbs of swinging iron) has several issues to understand, and maintenance is critical--particularly in salt water.

25' is still a fairly small sailboat on L.I.S.--it's best to pick one that's somewhat optimized for your situation. You want comfort and security--water ballast is for a different objective. I'd keep looking...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/01/2022 09:24:47

Oneday
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 04/01/2022 : 11:38:59

Dave, I think you are right on. I�m going to stick with my Capri 18 until the right one comes along! Thanks Dan

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9047 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2022 : 20:45:04

Dan... As indicated by my signature, I went from a C-25 to the Dark Side for my (presumed) final chapter, for a collection of reasons. Now I turn the key, drop the lines, and go. Of course "You can get there faster on a powerboat--on a sailboat, you're already there." But on my powerboat, I can be "there" just a few steps from my door (where the sailboat couldn't go); she sleeps two and parties eight; and she can do a day-trip to Block Island or Greenport. It's all about optimizing to your situation.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/06/2022 13:03:41

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/05/2022 : 05:27:35

This thread raises the question: "What characteristics should a sailboat have to make it suitable for sailing in >25kt winds on a large, unsheltered body of water such as the Chesapeake Bay or Long Island Sound?" A boat is not safe if you can't control it in marginal conditions. A C25 or C250 or Capri 18 is safe to sail in those waters in mild conditions, but not in marginal ones. To sail in marginal conditions, a boat must have an inboard engine, so the prop will remain in the water and driving as the boat motors to windward. A boat should displace about 10,000 lbs. That weight will help provide it momentum to drive it to windward against the waves crashing on its bow. A boat should have a higher freeboard so that waves breaking on the bow will be less likely to wash over the decks and into the cockpit.

Enjoy sailing your Capri in LIS in mild conditions. If you get caught in deteriorating conditions, don't persist in trying to get back to your marina or other destination. Immediately head for the nearest windward shore, where the wind velocity will be noticeably reduced and where the waves will be much smaller. Anchor the boat (with good ground tackle) in the most sheltered area you can find and wait for the conditions to subside.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/06/2022 : 18:27:40

"Oneday" I too sail Long Island Sound, out of Norwalk/Darien. If you took your 18 to Milford, I suspect your are a capable sailor. Either the 250 or 25 will be much more capable and, therefore, more enjoyable. Owning a C25 I am biased: love a full keel, and the space is just right for an overnight (or two). I am sure the 250 is a solid boat (and based on the feed back so far it confirms it) but would opt for the wing keel. Regardless, stay in the Catalina family -- they are great boats!

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

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