Association Forum - Keel winch (Shelby 5352) harsh cable pay out

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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel winch (Shelby 5352) harsh cable pay out

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yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/13/2017 : 16:33:24

Hi everybody,

Picked up a C25 SK in Iowa, PO is a user here. The retracting of the keel appears to be free of issues, as did lowering upon first sail although I'm completely unfamiliar with what normal is on these (previous boat C16 WK). The winching UP action is consistent which reportedly had a kit applied this year using:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/1624/keel-lifting-hardware-maintenance-kit-c-25.cfm per owner.

Paying out cable to lower the keel is another story. The first few rotations seem OK but then a pronounced/loud/alerting CLICK (not a pleasant click) is heard/felt and often results in stoppage. Raising the keel and then returning to the position where the click was previously, can sometimes work around but expect another and harsher within the revolution of the handle. At this point, you are about halfway deployed I speculate and judging by what is left on the drum. I was able to get it deployed to where the keel was down (I think) and there was just a small amount of play in the cable (which I thought was desirable to avoid cable "singing" underway).

This can't be good. Before I bought the boat, we test sailed her on Red Rock Resevoir and I was tasked with lowering the keel and it seemed fine but I was completely unfamiliar with the process. When it came time to recover her onto a trailer, we had some issues and discovered that the keel was not fully retracted until a large bang onto the trailer where we suspect the keel dropped about 6-12" (remember, it weighs in over 1500lbs) from a high point on the trailer to a lower point like the frame. Then we winched it up and it lined up fine on the trailer. I didn't think this event is related but it is not sitting well in terms of timing and the previous owner echoes it.

I'll give the winch another visual soon. I don't recall seeing anything wrong. It's a clutched system that auto-brakes which from what I understand, is a pair of discs that are friction-based so when winding up a load, a traditional pawl engages on each tooth of the cog. When the handle is released ,the pawl prevents freewheeling. For deployment, there must be a load and there must be a small amount of pressure at the crank that will separate the discs and therefore disengage the pawl from the cog to allow lowering. Remove the pressure from the crank i.e. stop cranking, discs marry up, friction is experienced and pawl engages. It seems to be getting worse because now I am getting momentary failures in the last few rotations where I am positive I do not trust the winch in anything but fully lowered position or the keel will drop.

Replacement winch and handle is about 200 I think: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/558/keel-winch-c-25.cfm

I've read lubrication can be helpful but to avoid the clutch plates/discs because it can reduce friction. That sounds improbable since going up seems fine. It is a SHELBY 5352 winch rated for 1500lbs and I'm not sure this was the original, Catalina-direct rep said that they came with Fultons, not Shelbys.

1986 Catalina 25 std rig swing keel.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far,

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2017 : 04:42:37

The keel and winch system on these boats is scary to deal with at first until you familiarize yourself and grow comfortable with it after proper maintenance. I am not sure if you are looking for answers to any questions as I don't see any and it appears you have this covered and you even said it yourself...

" I do not trust the winch in anything but fully lowered position or the keel will drop."

$200 isn't even a boat unit for something you will constantly be worrying about.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2017 : 05:23:06

Hi, thanks, and good point. I think the only question I had was if anyone here knew he or she had an original winch and it was a Shelby 5352, not a Fulton. I'm just trying to figure out if I order a new winch, like the one from Catalina-D, it will fit into the current mount bolts and winch exit hole in the companionway ladder.

She's a well-taken care of boat so you're (I'm) right, what's 200 to have peace of mind and enjoy her.

Thanks.
Carl

Carl Sattler

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2017 : 05:59:25

I replaced mine and it fit in the standard bolt holes and handle exit. New was Fulton and can't remember if the old was as well. I still have the old one in my basement somewhere. I'll see if I can find and check it. Don't forget shims when the new gets installed!

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2017 : 07:07:27

Two possibilities: (1) CD can probably tell you the make of the original winch for your vintage (I haven't heard of anything but Fulton here), or (2) they might be able to give you dimensions (or a template).

Regarding that 12" "drop" on the trailer, the keel should be lowered onto a support of some sort on the trailer after loading the boat, so the cable and winch aren't supporting it as you rumble down the road. It might have been a winch problem, but it shouldn't have caused damage to the hull as would a full fall, which causes the head and/or forward edge to impact the trunk.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/14/2017 07:19:35

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2017 : 16:38:07

I purchased the new winch/handle w/cable kit 3 years ago and the winch sometimes makes a heck of a noise going down but functions good.

Wesley Allen
"Breaking Wind"
1982 C-25 SR/TR/SK #2773
Hemlock, MI

yachtsea
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2017 : 23:32:21

Had her out for the first time today. She sailed lovely. Little cable singing but put just a bit of slack into it and that more or less went away. 5kt indicated so we're pretty happy with her.
I'd post a picture if anyone was interested but when I click on insert image, I only see some IMG characters appear.

Carl Sattler

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2017 : 06:45:00

quote:
Originally posted by yachtsea

...when I click on insert image, I only see some IMG characters appear.

First, you need to upload the picture to some photo site (including our Photo Gallery for members). Then, "copy" the address of the file (right-click it). In your post, click

, and then "paste" the address between the ] and the [ of the two "img" tags (like I just did to show the button).

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2017 06:47:45

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2017 : 07:33:37

Like Dave said You can't upload a photo directly from your phone or off a computer. The photo has to be out on the internet at a photo sharing site like Flikr or on the forum photo area. From there you right click on the photo, Copy the Image Address and paste it between those 2 image brackets.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2017 : 08:19:38

Got it. Thanks.

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2017 : 21:52:14

Loud bangs or thumps usually have more to do with the keel hanging up than the winch. The problem areas that can cause it are the turning ball and the pivot pin or hole. A worn turning ball can catch the cable and release when the load gets higher; the same thing can happen with a worn pivot pin or elongated pin hole.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

yachtsea
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2017 : 04:39:10

I liked the turning ball for this issue except when full deployed and there is no tension on the cable, it persisted so it really pointed to the winch. The other thing that softens the blow is that previous owner applied the keel maintenence kit this year so by replacing the winch, save for the hinge pin and eye bolt, albeit substantial) the keel gear will be more or less new in 2017.

I will also enjoy trying out the winch when it comes out with a fully visible load.

Carl

Carl Sattler

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2017 : 08:48:12

The Fulton winch is a piece of engineering beauty. It does its job perfectly and is incredibly durable, but not eternal. Pearl"s is original. Pearl's previous owner didn't subject her to the same abuse that I do; that probable added to her lifespan.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/16/2017 08:50:10

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2017 : 08:45:54

If you do end up replacing the winch, save the fitting on the old winch that the handle engages. If you do not want to buy from CD, it may be possible to buy a standard brake winch (with the required weight capacity, of course)from someone like Grainger and install the old fitting on it for less money. I did that for a friend's C-22 and all I needed to modify was the bend in the handle to clear the companionway step.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

yachtsea
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2017 : 08:57:58

Good rec and thanks. The Shelby winch handle is square and doesn't fit terribly well. While I'm not doing cartwheels over a $70 winch handle on a 189 dollar winch that is likely available for half or less, this is one chain I could fully outfit with CD components. Thanks again.

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