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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/05/2016 :  09:24:59  Show Profile  Visit Bladeswell's Homepage
Hello Everyone,

My boat is currently equipped with a porta potty. I have used it and emptied it. Not a pleasant job. My question is this, would it be worth the expense to change it over to a real marine head ? In your opinion does it add any value to the boat ? I will mostly day sail her with one or two weekends a month to Catalina Island. I am restoring her to satisfy me with no plans of selling her in the future. So I don't plan on ever seeing the invested money again. Looking at the for sale adds, based on the Age of my boat I would probably be lucky to see $4000 if she were sold. No matter what I actually spend on her. This doesn't matter to me but it may be relevant to my heirs.Thanks.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.

sdpinaz
Navigator

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USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2016 :  10:48:54  Show Profile
I actually went the other way. My boat came with a marine head and I have removed it. I live in the mountains of Arizona so the boat sits on a trailer most of the time with many freeze/thaws cycles all winter long so I replaced it with a C-Head. I like the simplicity of the new system and it doesn't take as much to maintain for the infrequent use I give it. the C-Head is a "composting toilet' type although there is no composting involved, it does separate pee and poop which makes it much more pleasant to clean. I also still have the old head and the holding tank so if you want those items, you can have them.

Scott
'88 WK/SR #5727
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trbagpiper
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2016 :  10:55:41  Show Profile
Scott, I'm in the middle of a full restoration and I have nothing. If nobody wants your old one, I'm just wondering what it would cost to ship.

Jim Ventimiglia
Toms River Yacht Club
'78 Cat 25 #945 SK/SR "Pipe Dream"
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SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2016 :  12:04:16  Show Profile
By a coincidence, I'm changing out the Groco marine head to a new Jabsco.
The Groco will pump water and waste out of the bowl, but the pump won't fill the bowl. To rebuild the pump unit is about $90. A new Jabsco toilet with new safety features (built in shut-off) is only $170.
I am delighted to have a marine toilet instead of a porta potty. Delighted. It's so easy to pull up to the fuel dock and have the holding tank cleaned. It's so much more trouble, and far more disgusting to shlep the porta potty to a men's room and empty it.
Did I say I was delighted with the marine head ?

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9067 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2016 :  12:52:49  Show Profile
There are several porta-pottie models (Thetford, Sealand, etc.) that have outlets for attachment to a deck fitting for dockside pump-out. This eliminates the installation and maintenance of a separate holding tank and the plumbing to it, but commonly limits you to 5 gallons of "stuff"--generally sufficient for two people over a weekend.

I have another model--a ceramic "throne" directly on top of a 9 gallon holding tank, plumbed to a deck fitting and vented outside, and fed by my pressurized fresh water system. (Not using salt water greatly reduces odors.) It's simple to use, has virtually nothing to maintain, and is odorless (with the help of an enzyme treatment, which also makes a big difference in portable units). However, I don't know how well it would fit on the ledge in the C-25 head compartment.


Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/07/2016 13:54:50
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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2016 :  20:42:01  Show Profile  Visit Bladeswell's Homepage
Back Again,

First I would like to thank Scott for his generous offer. However, most probably your tank would not be the one I need. You see, my tank will need to be installed under the vberth if I decide I want to do this. Most of the factory tanks as far as I know are installed just aft of the port main bulkhead if it is a dinette model. And under the port settee if traditional. My boat being an L shape dinette model most likely would have used the dinette model tank. But here is the problem. I can't install the tank there because that spot is the only place on the boat where I can install my hot water heater. Hense, the need for the tank to go under the v berth. Next, as another poster asked. The shipping for the head could be half the cost of a brand new one.
More thru hulls was another concern. I did read that sea water was a major factor of oder causing bacteria. The recommendation was to always chase the flush with fresh water. But I like Dave's idea better, just don't use sea water. That would also eliminate one more thru hull. By the way, mine is a Sanipotty. In the end, I will probably do it. My tank choices are 9 gallons or 13 gallons. But even the 9 gallon tank more than triples the porta potty capacity. Thanks all.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.
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sdpinaz
Navigator

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USA
193 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2016 :  22:58:18  Show Profile
My holding tank was under my port settee, but it might fit under the v berth. I will have to measure it. Also I am headed your way the first week in May so if you want just the head or the head and holding tank, you have plenty of time to figure out your plan.

Scott
'88 WK/SR #5727
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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2016 :  08:31:03  Show Profile
I hate our boat's porta-potty. At the end of each weekend on the boat, I am inevitably the one who must trundle our little bomb through the entire marina to the dump station. Never again will it be allowed to brew until next weekend. I smile and wave as I scurry past the other boat owners enjoying their cocktails. While making my walk of shame I often consider how my experience differs from the luxurious life of a sailing yacht owner that I previously imagined I would have.

Now my wife makes fun of me for looking at toilets on the Internet in my free time.

Does anybody know why there are several fresh water tank choices available from Catalina Direct, but only one holding tank model? It seems like there should be several holding tank models as well.



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 03/06/2016 08:32:38
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SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2016 :  13:01:51  Show Profile
Is there an additive to put into the marine holding tank to help deodorize the tank. Maybe something to help keep the bowl clean ?
I'm thinking downstream, I'll switch to a freshwater flush, but that's in the future. Maybe next year.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut
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Bladeswell
Captain

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USA
490 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2016 :  15:42:59  Show Profile  Visit Bladeswell's Homepage
Hello Everyone,

Thanks Scott. I will keep that in mind. It could still be difficult to hook up as I am an over the road truck driver. I could easily be out while you are out my way. I still have not made up my mind about it so if you should choose to give it to someone else that would be okay with me. By the way everyone, WM has a great selection of tanks should anyone want more choices than what is offered by CD. Good sailing all.

Bladeswell

C25 TR FK Hull #973 1979 L-Dinette. So.Cal.
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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1761 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2016 :  20:54:13  Show Profile
Speaking with no "real" experience but much arm chair thinking . . . . . my head really needs to be replaced, which means the holding tank, hoses, commode, etc. I toyed with a porta-potty and have read a bunch of opinions from people in different types of boats who have made the conversion and/or considered the conversion. At the end of the day, I think the best long-term solution is to replace the head with another system similar to the original: head, y-valve, holding tank, pump-out, etc. It utilizes the original "system"design, is far more accommodating for maintenance, and provides the flexibility of having some capacity that should smell less. If you look at places like Catalina Direct for tanks, Defender for commodes and hoses the project should be doable at a reasonable cost.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT
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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2016 :  15:34:49  Show Profile
Tough crowd...



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9067 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2016 :  11:05:04  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by SKS

Is there an additive to put into the marine holding tank to help deodorize the tank. Maybe something to help keep the bowl clean ?
WM has several head treatments--Odorlos being a popular one. Some are nitrate-based, others use enzymes.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4014 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2016 :  14:46:20  Show Profile
quote:
Tough crowd...

No way Seth. I got a good laugh out of your "Walk of shame"

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound


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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5889 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2016 :  16:11:51  Show Profile
FWIW, I flush with Chesapeake Bay brackish water, and don't have a problem with odor. The mixture of salt water and urine produces ammonia. After using the head, I pump it 8-10 times. I believe that is enough to move the mixture away from the toilet, and that any water in the line nearest the toilet is only seawater. I suspect some people only pump it 2-4 strokes, thinking that's enough. I've been told that, if the mixture isn't flushed away adequately, it will leave a residue in the lines and in the toilet itself, and once that residue develops, it tends to stay, so it's good to be consistent in pumping enough to clear the toilet. The toilet in your home has an S trap built into it, to prevent sewer gas from coming through the pipe. I don't think the toilet on a boat has a trap.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore
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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2016 :  19:05:49  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by islander

quote:
Tough crowd...

No way Seth. I got a good laugh out of your "Walk of shame"



Thanks Scott!



Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/
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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2016 :  14:16:31  Show Profile
On my C25 I took the marine head out and replaced with a 5 gallon (if I remember correctly) Thetford portapotty because getting to and from that lake's pump-out was an ordeal. It was one of those portapotties that could still be plumbed for a pump out, but I never did that. I had no regrets. Also, I could never get the "head" smell out of the boat with the marine head, but that could have been my lack of knowledge on how to remedy the situation.

On the "new" Beneteau I of course have a marine head and to respond to the question about tank additives to mitigate smell, I recommend Odorlos, which Dave mentioned above. When I bought the Beneteau a few years ago it had a STRONG head smell, which made us almost turn right around and walk off the boat when we first looked at it. But after reading when and how to use Odorlos, the boat is "head-smell" free (knock on wood). I think there are systems for which Odorlos works better than others, and I think the C25 has one of those systems, specifically when there is only a single vent line to the holding tank. That's where the Odorlos works best. If there are two vent lines to the holding tank, I think there might be a better product. The difference, I think, is how the bacteria operate with a one-vent system vs. a two-vent. Anyway, buy Peggy Hall's (The Head Mistress) book. I did, and it changed my life.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio
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wanderer13
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2016 :  14:33:50  Show Profile
My boat has a Jabsco head and a 14 gallon holding tank under the v-berth. I looked at the Airhead composting toilet at the boat show... then saw the $1000 price tag! It also needs a vent fan that runs off the house battery, and I don't know what happens when that fan isn't running. My Jabsco manual pump works fine and doesn't take any battery power to operate!

1981 Catalina 25 FK/TR
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pearson39b
1st Mate

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93 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2016 :  12:19:33  Show Profile
Let me add my vote for Odorlos. Been using it for years on a variety of boats, and find that both the dry and wet formulations do a great job.

That said, there are sometimes when replacing the commode, adding treatment and flushing the tank still doesn't get the bad smell out. In that case, I highly recommend replacing all the waste hoses. That's what it took for my Pearson 39, and the result was dramatic. The old hoses were so clogged with crystalized deposits, there was hardly a dimes width of opening in the center for waste passage.

Useful hint: Use a heat gun or hair dryer to blow hot air through the new hose before you bend it around corners or attach it to a fitting. Life will be much easier....

Sailor Jerry
C-25 "Sea Song"
1978, SK, Std.
Pepin, WI
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9067 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2016 :  13:41:28  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by pearson39b

...I highly recommend replacing all the waste hoses.
And if you do, go big! Buy a "sanitation" hose that will probably cost you $14/foot at WM--much less from Defender. Anything else will soon start to emit odors.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2016 :  13:42:37  Show Profile
Just a side bar. I replaced my original Jabsco head with a new lockable one a year ago. To my dismay it is now leaking at the top of the pump. It began before winter and was winterized so I honestly believe product defect. Add it to my long laundry list of things to fix.


Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053
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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9067 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2016 :  20:40:10  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Bladeswell

...I am restoring her to satisfy me with no plans of selling her in the future. So I don't plan on ever seeing the invested money again. Looking at the for sale adds, based on the Age of my boat I would probably be lucky to see $4000 if she were sold. No matter what I actually spend on her. This doesn't matter to me but it may be relevant to my heirs.


Others have suggested here that a C-25 is going to cost something like $10,000--whether in the purchase price for a nicely maintained and upgraded specimen with a new 4-stroke, or for a project boat for a quarter of that where you start replacing and working on everything needed to make her safe, seaworthy, comfortable, and something you're not ashamed to show to friends. Mine started out close to that number and went well over by the time I let go of her (for a significant "loss").

I put "loss" in quote marks because I never thought of it as a loss, and no boat owner should look at it that way. Think of an avid golfer buying a set of clubs... S/he could never sell them for close to what they paid... A few years later, s/he will need a new set, or at least a new $500 driver, $400 hybrid, and $300 putter, because to show up at the first tee with obsolete clubs is embarrassing even though they won't affect his/her score by even one stroke... And we won't even talk about greens fees, cart rentals, club memberships, and Titleist balls for the fish! (By the way, my driver is made of wood! But it's probably been 20 years since I played with anyone else with one, and I'm sure it hasn't cost me a single stroke. It's me who costs me strokes!)

[/hyjack]

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge
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jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2016 :  19:32:27  Show Profile
I'll have to weigh in on this on. Go with the Jabso head. I installed mine about 3 years ago, and redid the whole setup. You can't tell I have one installed. Have never had "that smell" that most boats with heads have. An no, I don't flush with fresh water. It used to be lake water and now its salt. The trick is getting proper vent lines installed, yes line(s). The key to keeping the smell to nadda is keeping the tank aerobic. To do that, you need good air flow across it. here is a book that goes into http://www.amazon.com/Get-Boat-Odors-Peggie-Hall/dp/1892399156 but really you can find all of the info on Google.

Check out my album on the upgrades I did. I went big with the holding tank mainly because a lack of facilities with the lake I used to be on. Putting the tank in the bow did allow me to get two 1" vent lines installed.




Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850
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