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Halyard line for Main and Jib

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JanS48
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USA
144 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/05/2015 : 22:31:47

Greetings all, I'm getting close to stepping the mast for the 1st time on the C25. While inspecting the lines I see that the halyard for the main is a bit tattered so a replacement is in order. It appears to be 3/8 braided line. So the question is should I spend the $1.70 per ft at WM or is the same size line from the likes of ACE hardware ok at about $1. per ft Ok -it looks exactly the same ? Frankly the extra doesn't bother me all that much - but I'm curious what you folks use?
Also - the jib halyard - what size should that be? The boat came with the mast down and no jib halyard.
Also regarding the main halyard - it was tied - double knotted, to the eyelet of the SS braid. Is it ok to put that on a clip of some kind for easy removal? Again what do you folks use?

Thanks for putting up with all the newbie questions.
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 04:47:03

I believe that you have the old style wire-to-rope halyards from your description. I had the same set-up which along with everyone else's recommendations here proved to be a poor set-up. If you have the mast down, consider changing the sheaves in the masthead with ones sized for rope from Catalina Direct and go to an all line setup. Eventually, in due time the wire will get jammed up there, just hope its not with the sails up and and increasing wind. CD still sells the wire sections for replacement however they state "Wire halyards are no longer recommended. Please call for advice."

As far as the quality of rope...

Good line is now engineered stronger than steel (so they say) which negates the usefulness of wire in the halyard system. The reason for spending money on a quality line is #1 overall strength and #2 Amount of stretch.

If you hank your sails up and cleat them off using a line without a low amount of stretch then after a couple tacks your sail is going to slowly be coming back down.

Here is a link where there is a comparison of halyard line Stretch Vs. Cost that might be helpful. Dated Aug.14
http://mydesultoryblog.com/2014/08/the-new-halyards-for-encore-are-ready-for-splicing/

Gook luck to you!

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

DavidBuoy
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707 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 04:55:14

Here is a link to CD with the halyard kit:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/652_185/halyards-to-cockpit-basic-kit-std-rig-external-c-25-font-colorff0000b-closeout-bfont.cfm

That kit is for if your halyards secure at the cockpit rather than on the mast so the lines are a bit longer. I didn't do it this way as I found better line, cheaper and just bought the sheeves from CD.

I used Samson Warpspeed 5/16" (which is the standard size for all rope halyards) which if you look at the "Stretch Vs. Cost" chart above you'll see it ranks one of the highest. I am liking it so far.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|2078767|2078774|2078781&id=148466

^Link doesn't work. Have to copy to browser.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

Edited by - DavidBuoy on 05/06/2015 04:56:37

hewebb
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761 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 05:14:42

This is what I used. I purchased it from Defender. Solid Green color for the main and solid red for the jib

Samson MLX Line
Line Diameter: 5/16", Specify Color
Average Tensile Strength: 4,500 lbs, Sold by the Foot
Blended Core of Innegra-S and Dyneema with 24-Strand Polyester Cover

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Edited by - hewebb on 05/06/2015 05:19:22

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 08:40:03

5/16" is right--not too skinny for comfort, and not to fat for weight and windage. But it requires different mast-head sheaves, as mentioned, and Catalina Direct has them. With hardware store rope, your luff will be scalloped about 10 minutes after you tension it. Sta-Set X has probably less than half the stretch (<2% @ 880 lbs. tension), and some others at multiples of SSX's price have a fraction of its stretch. I'd say SSX is the minimum standard for halyards.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/06/2015 10:19:52

Davy J
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Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 09:53:14

This link to WM advisor will explain some of the differences in running rigging:

The West Advisor

I used Sta-Set X on my C25 for halyards. Be aware that the splicing technique is different than other braids.

quote:
Also regarding the main halyard - it was tied - double knotted, to the eyelet of the SS braid. Is it ok to put that on a clip of some kind for easy removal? Again what do you folks use?

I'm not sure what SS braid means? But you can use a halyard shackle, spliced or tied to connect to the sail:

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Edited by - Davy J on 05/06/2015 10:12:33

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 10:30:18

quote:
Originally posted by Davy J

quote:
Also regarding the main halyard - it was tied - double knotted, to the eyelet of the SS braid. Is it ok to put that on a clip of some kind for easy removal? Again what do you folks use?

I'm not sure what SS braid means?

I'm guessing he's talking about the wire-to-rope connection, and by "SS braid" he means the stainless steel wire (twisted)--all moot if he goes to all-rope.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 10:45:29

quote:
I'm guessing he's talking about the wire-to-rope connection

Well that makes sense.....
My boat came from the factory with all rope halyards.

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 14:17:33

Catalina got smarter after 1985... Mine had the meat-hook versions, and I replaced them. It sounds like Jan's P.O. kept the wire, replaced the rope, and knotted it rather than splicing it at the eye.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5352 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 21:24:40

What kind of rope splice do you use on a halyard shackle? I see on mine the bitter end of the line is fished back into a marlinspike hole punched into the side of the standing part of the line. It has held so far (past 7 years). I'd rather not use a bowline, a double overhand or a stopped overhand slipknot.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

JanS48
Navigator

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144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2015 : 22:26:35

Thanks so much for all the great information, I'm going to take your advice and go with all rope halyards, however, on the CD site, besides the halyard kit, I see ball bearing sheaves vs std ones, and also a mention of using internal rope halyards - how would that attach to the main? just can't quite picture it - what do you folks use / recommend ? Ball bearing or std - Internal halyards?
Again - thanks so much for this info.
Jan

82 C25 SR FK
Sailing out of Newport Harbor.

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 03:26:21

quote:
What kind of rope splice do you use on a halyard shackle?

I just used an eye splice, making the loop as small as possible.

Sta-Set X eye splice:
Eye Splice

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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707 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 05:13:29

quote:
Originally posted by JanS48

Thanks so much for all the great information, I'm going to take your advice and go with all rope halyards, however, on the CD site, besides the halyard kit, I see ball bearing sheaves vs std ones, and also a mention of using internal rope halyards - how would that attach to the main? just can't quite picture it - what do you folks use / recommend ? Ball bearing or std - Internal halyards?
Again - thanks so much for this info.
Jan

If your boat is currently rigged with external halyards then upgrading to the internal halyards is a bigger project. If you are up for it, it can be nice, I however did not see the need for it. A benefit is that you can get 2 more or spare halyards up there and you can keep the lines cleanly inside the mast. Does does involve cutting into the mast at the base at a minimum of 4 locations for the lines to exit and you will have to design how all that works.

Here is a thread on internal halyards I located immediately after searching "internal halyards" in the search box on the left.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=26723

Lee Panza shows a great example of spending the time to really think out and engineer a solution.

http://panza.smugmug.com/MYSAILBOAT/The-Boat-Renovation/Mast-Modifications/21650162_bHQXBG#!i=1743997032&k=2CctWrt

For me, I decided to keep them external which gives me 2 halyards that go through the masthead plus I have a spinnaker crane on the front, and a block for the topping lift on the back, either of which could serve as back ups if anything were to happen.

I believe the method you should go with depends on your time frame, budget, experience and overall goals. If you are just trying to get this thing back on the water and sailing, keeping them external and going with new sheaves and all rope is still a drastic improvement. If you are looking to make this thing your perfect object with no constraints, sure go internal. Somebody else should weigh in on this that has gone internal so we can hear that side.

One thing also.. When you are having these types of questions, the fastest way to get initial answers is by using the search function. Guarantee 50+ people have started a thread that discusses and answers questions you may have. That's the best way to quickly feel something out, eliminate some possibilities and get better, more specific answers for yourself.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 06:08:16

warpspeed is very easy to splice as well. the splice is core to core as the core carries most of the strength. I bought two warpspeed halyards from fisheries supply when they had their closeout last year (thanks Rob for posting that.)

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 06:35:02

Jan--internal halyards appeared in later years than yours. There are only two sheaves at the mast-head instead of four (different mast-head casting), and rectangular exit holes with frames toward the bottom of the mast. The advantage is no halyards are exposed on the mast when the sails are up--racers probably say that reduces some drag... I don't think you need to go there.

I replaced my original (cracked and chipped) sheaves with non-ball-bearing versions (before CD had the bearing version), and they worked fine. The ball bearings might help gravity to lower your sails--I can't say.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 07:26:50

Last year when Scott & I dropped the mast on Passage, I bought new ball bearing sheaves from CD beforehand anticipating problems with the current ones. When I checked them I was very pleasantly surprised they were still in perfect condition: not one micron of slop, no rolling resistance and no chips or cracks. Really no sign of wear at all.
I also tried the new BB sheaves. They were no different - no better in any way.
I called CD and asked whether I can return them and they were fine with that.
I my humble opinion the standard CD sheaves are just as good as the BB sheaves at a lower price. Plus, there's less that can go wrong.

Edit: Dave - the sail slugs offer way more resistance than the sheaves ever do even with silicone spray. I use a light 1/4" downhaul line from the top slug to pull down the main. It's rigged parallel to my main halyard back to the cockpit and works great when I need to douse the main in a sudden blow.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 05/07/2015 07:36:49

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2015 : 09:30:27

Bruce: I presume those are the sheaves I put on--fabricated on Long Island maybe around 2002, before CD had them. Nobody else had that size. I suspect the thickness of the rope halyard, compared to wire, better protects the sheaves from sun and abrasion.

I agree about the slugs being the bigger issue, and used a 1/4" dousing line the same way you're doing it. (...could it be the same line? It was tied on when I sold the boat.) It beats having to jump up on the cabintop to get the sail down in a blow.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

hewebb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/08/2015 : 06:40:57

This is a Halyard Knot Easy to tie takes up less space than a splice.

http://www.animatedknots.com/halyard/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

The knot and this shackle works well for me. Purchased from Defender

Wichard Key Shackle with Bar - 3/16"

Wichard Key Shackle with Bar - 3/16"
Shackle Size: 3/16", Pin Diameter: 3/16", Length: 37 mm
Pin Type: Captive Key Pin, Working Load: 880 lbs
Material: Forged 316L Stainless Steel

Item #: 607550
Brand: Wichard
Model #: 81432
Shipping Weight: 0.05 Lbs.
List Price: $33.80

Our Price: $26.99

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2015 : 07:45:29

quote:
This is a Halyard Knot Easy to tie takes up less space than a splice.

If done properly, the splice should not take much space at all:

Davy J

2005 Gemini 105Mc
PO 1987 C25 #5509 SR/SK
Tampa Bay

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5352 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2015 : 16:50:52

Like the halyard knot a lot.
I've used a fisherman's hitch (aka Anchor Hitch) in the past but this is better. Just used it on the boom outhaul for the mainsail.
The Ashley Book of Knots is the gift that keeps on giving.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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