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Any photos of single line reefing hardware?

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putzmeister
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Initially Posted - 12/04/2012 : 19:29:15

Anyone have photos of their single line reefing hardware - especially of the gooseneck and mast area?

This looks like a good solution:

1989 C25
Hull #5822

Edited by - putzmeister on 12/04/2012 19:42:20

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 21:15:07

That's almost as same as the system I used on TSU, except that both cheek blocks were on the boom. Make sure that the initial turning block on the aft end of the boom is back far enough that the clew is pulled both backwards and down. The one at the mast end need to pull straight down to avoid jamming the sail in the kerf.

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islander
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 14:57:56

The diagram is how I initially set mine up but I found that with all the bends in the line there is quite a bit of friction, So much so that the first time I used it I almost had to put the line on the winch. I didn't like this at all for fear of doing damage to the sail so I went back to a two line system by cutting the line. The front reef is still led to the cockpit and the aft reef I added a jamb cleat to the boom and reversed the cheek block so I can simply pull the line aft and lock it in the cleat. All from the cockpit. Maybe smaller line would would make it run through all of the turns with less friction but I think I used 1/4"line and it was way to hard to pull. Anyway having it a two line system and I still don't have to leave the cockpit works for me.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 18:08:14

I used 3/16th" on mine.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 18:37:57

The advantage of a 2-line system is you can pull down and secure the tack before you pull down the clew and tension the foot. This prevents pulling one or more slugs out of the kerf.

The single line system in the drawing helps to protect the slugs by pulling the tack forward somewhat. However, since both ends are being pulled down simultaneously (theoretically), you can't be sure of that result. I like two lines--pull down the tack and then the clew. It generally creates less friction (each line goes through just one grommet) and takes little or no more time.

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pfduffy
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 19:56:28

Scott - love your setup. Going to steal it for my boat! I've used the single line system for the past couple of years but have never been happy with the friction and the relatively crappy results when reefing.

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putzmeister
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 20:06:58

Thanks for sharing the above - all good thoughts. I guess the primary appeal of the single line is if winds pick up while on a long leg and far from any ports.

Don't you ease the halyard as you are tensioning the reefing line? With three ball bearing blocks, that leaves tension on just the two grommets. Wasn't one of the ideas of bringing the line to the cockpit was so you could use a winch?

You've got me really curious! May be a good discussion to have with the maker of our main sail - Gary Swensen.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 20:23:52

Tension is just part of the problem, and of course a winch can solve that, but be careful... Then the problem is what the tension does--i.e., can you get the tension you want on the new "foot" (the sail between the reef tack and reef clew) without yanking a slug out of the kerf. One line makes that problematic. Two lines let you sequence things so (1) the reef tack is pulled down close to the mast, and then (2) the reef clew applies the tension to the foot. With rope clutches, it's essentially YANK-SNAP (tack), YANK-SNAP (halyard), YANK-SNAP (clew)--and the yanks are probably easier due to less friction on each reef line.

The older, tried-and-true method uses a fixed hook at the gooseneck, so you go to the mast, ease the halyward, pull the reef tack down to the hook, re-tension the halyward, and then go back to the cockpit to tension the reef clew line. The 2-line system is more like that, but can be performed from the cockpit.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/05/2012 20:31:50

Ape-X
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 04:55:26

we have a hook on the gooseneck: lower the main, hook the luff cringle. The rear looks similar to the single line reefing: With the cheek block and the reef line then travels forward along the boom to a cleat. Allows all reefing to take place at the mast in short order.

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Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 09:01:59

I use Amsteel for the reefing line, not for its strength but rather for its slipperiness.

The hardware at the aft end of the boom is located so that when it pulls the reef clew down it just snugs the foot to the boom without pulling the foot aft. As soon as I'm able to, I bunch-up the middle of the foot and tie it with the short ties that are permanently secured at the two intermediate grommets (working upwind with the boom sheeted amidships, while I stand in the companionway), and I switch the outhaul from the primary clew to the reef clew (it's attached by a snap shackle) and tighten the outhaul (it's a 5:1 internal, led to the cockpit); there's enough movement left between the reef clew and the reefing hardware for that end to slide back and tighten the foot against the reef tack and the forward cheek blocks (which are both on the mast).

My experience with this setup has been that the forward end of the foot gets more tension from the reefing line than the aft end, in fact, I usually pull forward a bit on the line running forward along the boom to get the reef clew down a little closer to the boom.

The lowest slugs on the mainsail that came with this boat are on a jackline instead of fastened directly to the luff, so the tension at the forward end is taken entirely by the reefing line through the reef tack. The disadvantage of that, however, is that the portion of the luff below the reef tack is free to billow out. When I eventually replace the main I may just put the one slug that's in line with the reef tack on a jackline. Here's what a jackline is (from the old CruisingDirect website):

Another change I'll make, when I replace the mainsail, is two reefs. The first will be about where it is on my current sail, and I'll probably leave it in place all summer. It will be all manual, with a fixed tie at the clew that I'll tie down by hand and a hook for the tack, and the second reef will have the line to the cockpit as described above. I'll probably leave the first reef in most of the summer (for the "interesting" conditions we get here in SF Bay all summer) and the second will be for when things are getting "too interesting" to go to the mast to hook the tack.

By the way, it should be pointed out that a reef line droops when the unreefed sail is dropped at the end of the day, and it should be carefully tucked into the flakes before putting the cover on. The next time you hoist the sail, you need to watch that these sagging loops don't get caught on hardware or tangled so they interfere with hoisting the sail all the way up (speaking from experience). If you usually sail with the main all the way up this is just another thing to deal with every time you use the boat.

Hope this is helpful.

Edited by - Lee Panza on 12/06/2012 09:04:49

mrapkins
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 09:50:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 we have a hook on the gooseneck: lower the main, hook the luff cringle. The rear looks similar to the single line reefing: With the cheek block and the reef line then travels forward along the boom to a cleat. Allows all reefing to take place at the mast in short order.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Would it be possible to post a photo of your reefing hook and possibly a link to purchase one.

Thanks.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 10:26:50

I also use a reefing or tack hook:

It uses the tack pin for the mainsail.

[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=14252&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50045&subdeptNum=50072&classNum=50077"]West Marine tack hook[/url]

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Ape-X
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 10:35:50

I don't have pictures, but did find some reefing hooks at defender
http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C118%7C319693&id=319695

...and here is a good picture showing the single line setup. I simply drop the mainsail to the reef hook, tie that in and retension the halyard. The cleat to the reefing line at the leech of the sale is tied to a cleat on the boom.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 21:16:44

Lee: That description of a jack line is the best that I've seen. I was looking for good drawings or photos of them a few months ago to implement on our C-25. I sold it before I got around to it, and the new owner is going to make or buy track gates instead.

I had two line reefing on the C-25, but went with single line reefing on my new boat mostly due to cost (per line cost to run from the mast down through a cockpit clutch is about $100 and I was feeling cheap). The single line reefing works and is a lot better with slippery AmSteel, but the two line solution did work better.

Sometimes I wonder if running all of these lines back to the cockpit is worth it. There are major advantages in simplicity and ease of operation in leaving most lines at the mast.

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putzmeister
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Response Posted - 12/08/2012 : 18:56:59

Well I talked with Gary. He explained that he really doesn't reef very often - and will reef the foresail first. For the luff - he suggested using a block and tackle like you would for the cunningham and a simple line for the leech.

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Lee Panza
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Response Posted - 12/09/2012 : 12:29:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
...Sometimes I wonder if running all of these lines back to the cockpit is worth it. There are major advantages in simplicity and ease of operation in leaving most lines at the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Quite true, until you're single-handing and need to make adjustments in a high, gusty wind and an ugly chop, when going forward - let alone spending time there - is a very worrisome prospect. That's when all the trouble of setting up a good system at the cockpit pays its dividends.

Besides, there are some among us (we Engineers in particular) that enjoy the process of designing and implementing modifications to almost anything we use much. From your own postings, Alex, I think you could probably attest to this. It's been pointed out on this forum that different owners derive different pleasures from their boats, and I find that working on my boat (an oxymoron phrase if there ever was one) is as satisfying as sailing it well. And when one leads to the other it's the best of all possible ways to use my personal time.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 12/09/2012 : 21:35:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Sometimes I wonder if running all of these lines back to the cockpit is worth it. There are major advantages in simplicity and ease of operation in leaving most lines at the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree. I once had my main halyard ran back to the cockpit, but it really didn't fit my routine so I went back to raising the main at the mast.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 12/10/2012 : 06:35:56

<>

and seeing how different people do different things is just fascinating.

"We put a man on the moon before we put wheels on luggage."

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/10/2012 : 18:34:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
...Sometimes I wonder if running all of these lines back to the cockpit is worth it. There are major advantages in simplicity and ease of operation in leaving most lines at the mast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Quite true, until you're single-handing and need to make adjustments in a high, gusty wind and an ugly chop, when going forward - let alone spending time there - is a very worrisome prospect. That's when all the trouble of setting up a good system at the cockpit pays its dividends.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that this depends a lot on the sailor and the boat. One friend rightly says that he feels safer at the mast than pretty much anywhere else because there is a lot to hold onto, so he'd prefer to be up there for reefing. His boat is also incredibly well balanced though and will keep course for a long time in varying conditions, so being on the tiller all the time isn't that crucial. Sailing his boat (a Yankee 30) is sort of like sailing with an autopilot always engaged, but you can take over at any time.

On a Catalina 25 that bounces around more and is more reactive to sail trim the same isn't true and it's more important to get back to the cockpit.

Still I'm not sure that _every_ line benefits from being run back. The topping lift, outhaul, and Cunningham are examples of lines that seem fine to me to leave at the mast. None are used in emergencies.

I'm trying to think about groups of lines that need to be used together. For single handing the reefing lines need to go to the same point as the halyard, but it is up to personal preference if that should be the cockpit or mast. The spinnaker halyard and sock control lines are another group that should stay together.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
Besides, there are some among us (we Engineers in particular) that enjoy the process of designing and implementing modifications to almost anything we use much. From your own postings, Alex, I think you could probably attest to this. It's been pointed out on this forum that different owners derive different pleasures from their boats, and I find that working on my boat (an oxymoron phrase if there ever was one) is as satisfying as sailing it well.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I completely agree with everything here and wouldn't tell anyone that their personal preference is the wrong preference. As I setup a new boat I'm just questioning myself how many lines I want to run all the way back and what the benefits and downsides are for each of them. When I first started sailing (not very long ago) I assumed that I'd want everything to the cockpit. I no longer feel that way.

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 12/10/2012 : 19:00:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
I completely agree with everything here and wouldn't tell anyone that their personal preference is the wrong preference. As I setup a new boat I'm just questioning myself how many lines I want to run all the way back and what the benefits and downsides are for each of them. When I first started sailing (not very long ago) I assumed that I'd want everything to the cockpit. I no longer feel that way.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Alex!
I think you have the right mindset about there not being very many absolutes!!! I have found that the longer I have sailed, the fewer lines I wanted led back to the cockpit, both for crewed sailing/racing and solo sailing, and for cruising. I only have the jib and Spinnaker halyards, and the Spin pole topping lift and foreguy led to the cockpit. Everything else is on the mast or the forward end of the boom. If I am sailing solo, and I have to go forward and the wind and sea state do not allow simply cleating the tiller to hold course, I just heave to and the boat stays pleanty stable for me to safely move about on deck.

This approach has worked for me for many years, but like you said, it may not be for everyone.

My advice to folks in the past has been to keep things very simple initially, and see what you like and do not like based on using the boat in different conditions, and then try different options for the things you want to do differently. Nothing has to be a permanent change if it turns out you don't like a particular approach (even though you might end up needing to become a bit philosophical about filling holes if you change your mind too many times! <smile>

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 12/10/2012 19:02:11

dlucier
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Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 12:20:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Still I'm not sure that _every_ line benefits from being run back. The topping lift, outhaul, and Cunningham are examples of lines that seem fine to me to leave at the mast. None are used in emergencies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interestingly, my topping lift, outhaul, and Cunningham are the only lines I've led aft.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 15:18:43

I can running those controls aft that for crew racing where you want quick access to sail shape controls and can send someone forward for hoisting and dropping sails.

When I was racing my C-25 it was pretty easy to send someone forward to change those controls. I had the topping lift and outhaul forward on the boom (so they could be reached even if the mainsheet was fully out) and we didn't have a Cunningham control line permanently installed. We only used it on my old blown out sail when the downhaul was maxed out. Our downhaul was also not run forward.

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islander
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Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 16:46:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> it was pretty easy to send someone forward to change those controls<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Was this the guy that drew the short straw?

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redeye
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Response Posted - 12/12/2012 : 05:11:25

I have a protected slip where the prevailing wind blows in just outside the "seawall". I've gotta get the sails up quick just after motoring clear of the docks so I've been trying to finish up the project of running the halyards back to the cabin top for about 7 years now.
First I needed to do the mast wiring and lighting and add a mast plate and all the electrical on board, and add Marelon winches on the cabin top.
I've finished the jib halyard with clutch back on the strbrd side, and I expect to finish the Main halyard with clutch back on the port side this weekend. I want to add a mast gate and run the forward reefing line back to a cam cleat. Another line on the boom will tighten the clew.

I want only those three controls leading aft as I can keep the coiled jib halyard hung on the winch on the strbrd side, and the main halyard coiled and thrown over the winch on the port side, and the reefing rats tail will normally be a knot just aft of the cam cleat.

The cabintop winches are also important as they hold the throwable life preservers up to lean back on in just the right spot when you sit facing aft...

I've been using single line reefing for some time and it has been a pain to tighten and adjust...the SAMSON ROPE AmSteel-Blue Dyneema SK-75 Single Braid seemed to be the slipperiest line to use for this.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 08/23/2013 : 18:15:00

Anyone have pix of a tack hook attached to their boom of gooseneck?

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 08/24/2013 : 04:21:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Anyone have pix of a tack hook attached to their boom of gooseneck?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If no one has any, I'll get a picture of mine tomorrow.

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