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traveler options

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 07/17/2012 : 08:20:53

I'd like to upgrade my traveler at some point. I've been scouring the archives and these are the two setups that I'm the most impressed with:

Brooke's companionway mounted traveler:

from this thread:
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=6903

I like this one because it doesn't block the seating or shrink the cockpit. The traveler doesn't have a lot of travel, but since it is mid-boom it will have more effect than the stock one. It would be easy for someone besides the helmsman to handle mainsheet position here during racing. It seems like it gets out of the way enough for getting down below. The main downsides are that it won't work with a dodger (I don't have one) and the limited travel.

Steve's transom mounted traveler:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0db33b3127ccefa4c558b2ba600000040O00AZM2bJk0bt2QPbz4a/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/" border="0">
from this thread:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21505&whichpage=1

Upsides: Lots of travel, out of the way of the cockpit, uses end-boom sheeting as stock.
Downsides: Have to make a compound curve, limits tiller height, lots of hardware being installed in the hardest to access part of the boat.

I thought about doing a modified version of this where the track is on risers that are a few inches high. That'll get it out of the way of the tiller.

The other options that I've seen are over the pop-top and across the cockpit in front of the companionway. I don't like the latter because it makes the already small cockpit even smaller. Over the pop-top seems like it would make using the pop-top even more annoying. On the pop-top doesn't seem structurally sound.

Are there any other good options that I'm missing? Has anyone else copied Brooke's setup and can you report on how well it works? Is there enough travel to make the upgrade costs (a few hundred) worth it?

Finally, has anyone compared the Lewmar and Harken small boat travelers? The Lewmar is about half the price...

Please don't turn this into a debate on mid-boom sheeting, that is well hashed over in the archives.

Alex W
Seattle, WA
Express 37 "re-Quest"
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra"

Edited by - awetmore on 07/17/2012 08:25:34

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 12:51:30

I made a mod which didn't involve moving the traveler (keeping me class legal):-

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 13:19:24

Your link didn't work, but I think I saw that when I was scouring the forums. Did you also consider making the traveler bar longer, or are you using the stock one?

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 15:45:11

Alex -

You mentioned racing, but you gotta realize that in many racing clubs the boats are limited to the stock design. They race by class. You could also post this idea on the Racing Forum and you'll get answers about that. But if that is no issue for you, then one of the mods would be ok.

I am wondering how much more lateral swing is provided by Brooke's companionway-traveler design, compared to the original design. Is it twice as much? 50% more distance on each side?

Brooke, are you still on the forum? Probably not!

Does anyone know? I suppose I could make a scale drawing to find out!

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
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Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 20:35:24

I saw a "double sheet" set up on a mirage 25 that looked promising.

I think the best place to attach on the C25 would be on the face bulkhead rather than on the cabin top, that way there would be no interference with the pop top and an already busy deck area.

here is a link to a good description and some more pictures.

http://users.accesscomm.ca/gbabish/double.html

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 22:14:35

John: I'm not doing one design racing, just beer can races (duckdodge.org). It's fun, but not serious. There are other C-25s, but there are so many variations on this boat that a true one design race would be tough.

The boom on that C25 with the double mainsheet is unusual, it is rectangular instead of oval. It seems like it wouldn't really give you the control over leech tension that you get with a true traveler.

The Brooke setup probably gives about double the travel of the stock setup if the traveler has about the same range and it is mounted near the midpoint of the boom instead of the end.

What do you mean by the face bulkhead? Is that the bulkhead on the back of the cabin? I don't see a good place to mount a traveler there that doesn't get in the way of the companionway unless you mount it where Brooke did.

As I think more about this I think that a transom mounted setup is probably the right option.

Edited by - awetmore on 07/17/2012 22:16:00

NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 04:52:31

If I were to modify mine, it would be to mount it across the seats right in front of the companionway. Kind of like Brooke's setup, only longer, from coaming to coaming. That way you get more travel to be worth the modification, and you could swing the boom further out of the way while at dock. There may also be a way to remove the center section of the traveler so it's not in the way when entering the cabin.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 05:53:49

I don't understand the need for more travel. By easing the sheet, the boom on my C25 could travel all the way forward as far as the aft lowers. No traveler design will permit the boom to travel any further. When the boom is eased to leeward to the maximum extent of the traveler, you can continue to ease the boom further by easing the mainsheet. From that point on, the vang keeps the boom from lifting when the mainsheet is eased. If the boat didn't have a vang, then a very long traveler might be useful.

I always liked the stock, transom mounted traveler because it was functional, and after 23 years, it never clotheslined a cockpit passenger.

My only complaint about it was that, realistically, only the helmsman could operate it, because another crew member behind the tiller would interfere with the helmsman's ability to swing the tiller freely. It was also awkward for the helmsman to operate, because he had to twist around to reach it, when he needed to be looking forward to steer the boat. I always liked Derek's modification, because it kept the boat stock, it brought the traveler control forward, so that someone other than the helmsman could operate it, and it kept the entire mainsheet and traveler all the way aft, so that the mainsheet wouldn't catch anyone's head when gybing.

I think Brook's mod is a reasonable alternative, because it moves the traveler and mainsheet forward of all the cockpit passengers, and it is within reach of either the helmsman or another crewmember, but, before I would make a modification, I would want to believe that it was not just a reasonable alternative, but a functional improvement. Overall, I don't see that Brook's placement significantly improves the basic function of the traveler beyond the stock system, with Derek's mod. At this point, if the class racing rules aren't a significant concern, then the question starts to become a more subjective question of which arrangement you like the most, and feel most comfortable operating. In that case, I'm a strong advocate for the principle that it's your boat. You can rig it any way you wish, as long as it's safe.

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
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Australia
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 06:41:00

The common set up on Australian C25's is a stern mounted track.

This was set up with adjustment pulleys on each side for racing . For cruising I just use adjustable stops . ( my previous boat had cross the cockpit track -ok but a real nuisance for cruising stuck in the middle of access etc) Stern is great.... especially with a double purchase boom Vang to keep the leech tight when the main is eased..

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 07:30:18

Howard has the setup Novi is talking about....a couple of blocks on the bulkhead face to mid boom sheeting....maybe he'll chime in and post a pic and comment.

So, if you go to mid boom sheeting....does this diminish the need/effectiveness of the vang?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 07:51:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 Howard has the setup Novi is talking about....a couple of blocks on the bulkhead face to mid boom sheeting....maybe he'll chime in and post a pic and comment.

So, if you go to mid boom sheeting....does this diminish the need/effectiveness of the vang?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No. You still need a vang to keep the boom from lifting when the boom is pushed out during a run downwind.

The only system I can recall that eliminated the need for a vang was, I think, installed on an Ericson racer. It had a traveler track mounted on the coach roof in a half-circle, with each end terminating close to the mast stays. The mainsheet served the purposes of both the mainsheet and the vang, and the position of the traveler on the track had a separate control.

It seemed like a neat idea, but never caught on, so I would guess that they discovered drawbacks to it that weren't apparent at first.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/18/2012 08:12:05

awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 08:36:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 If I were to modify mine, it would be to mount it across the seats right in front of the companionway. Kind of like Brooke's setup, only longer, from coaming to coaming. That way you get more travel to be worth the modification, and you could swing the boom further out of the way while at dock. There may also be a way to remove the center section of the traveler so it's not in the way when entering the cabin.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I specifically mentioned that option as the one that I don't want to do. The C-25 cockpit is already too small (sail a Capri 22 for a nice comparison) and doing that would eliminate another 4-6" from it. It would also take away my wife's favorite sitting position, which is sitting against the bulkhead facing backwards.

I do know that this is a common solution. I've checked out boats modified this way and understand the benefits, I just don't think it is the best solution for me.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 08:54:46

I'm leaning pretty heavily towards the transom mounted option, especially since I found some old Harken small boat traveler kits with all of the hardware for a good price. Boomeroo: Do you find that the traveler gets in the way of lifting the tiller, or it isn't a big deal?

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 09:23:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 If I were to modify mine, it would be to mount it across the seats right in front of the companionway. Kind of like Brooke's setup, only longer, from coaming to coaming. That way you get more travel to be worth the modification, and you could swing the boom further out of the way while at dock. There may also be a way to remove the center section of the traveler so it's not in the way when entering the cabin.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I specifically mentioned that option as the one that I don't want to do. The C-25 cockpit is already too small (sail a Capri 22 for a nice comparison) and doing that would eliminate another 4-6" from it. It would also take away my wife's favorite sitting position, which is sitting against the bulkhead facing backwards.

I do know that this is a common solution. I've checked out boats modified this way and understand the benefits, I just don't think it is the best solution for me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The traveler is 1.5" wide at most. Unless her butt has a 90deg. angle in it to fill in the bulkhead/seat corner, I don't think it would be a problem for her.

The only problem I would see is to make her move to the other side when you really want the traveler to go behind her.

The Capri has the traveler in the middle of the cockpit. That's not the same location I'm talking about.

Steve: The benefit of having the longer traveler is to get the boom out of your way while at the slip. I'm 6'1" with a TR and that would be a huge plus!

Edited by - NautiC25 on 07/18/2012 09:25:44

MrKawfey
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 09:42:26

Steve's reply has got me thinking. The fundamental goal is to be able to create optimal sail shape and angle by controlling both the horizontal and vertical position of the boom ( along with other tension adjustments). A traveler is not necessary for controlling the horizontal location. The mainsheet can hold the boom at any angle to the center line of the boat even if it is fixed.
For vertical control if you have a vang and functional topping lift you can theoretically set the height any where you want by pulling up or down.

Does this mean that a traveler is merely a matter of convenience?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 10:42:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Steve: The benefit of having the longer traveler is to get the boom out of your way while at the slip. I'm 6'1" with a TR and that would be a huge plus!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I used to be 6'2" (until I got old and shrank), and, when my boat (tall rig) was in her slip, I cleated the traveler all the way to starboard, and raised the boom out of the way with the topping lift. When I went home, I always lowered the topping lift. My topping lift was very easy to adjust up or down.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MrKawfey
 Does this mean that a traveler is merely a matter of convenience?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a very interesting question. I think one thing that a traveler can do that a combination of the mainsheet, vang and topping lift can't do is that you can cleat the traveler so that the boom won't swing either to windward or to leeward, especially in light air, when there isn't enough steady wind to hold it there. In that case, you'd have to rig and perhaps frequently adjust a sort of preventer.

I'm going to take the easy way out though, and guess that, if it would work and if it was at least as functional as a traveler, everybody would be doing it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/18/2012 10:58:29

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 15:18:35

The vang has a much shorter lever arm on the boom than the traveler (if both are kept in their stock places). It can't pull down as hard as the traveler.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/18/2012 : 21:21:19

I've thought about mounting a traveler above the pop top by mounting plates to the sides of the coach roof with the traveler bar attached between them and using some sort of quick connects so the traveler bar could be removed or swung out of the way when you want to raise the pop top at the dock or on the hook.

Kind of the same setup PCP777 has on his boat (he doesn't have a pop top system) but instead of mounting the traveler bar directly on the coach roof on each side of the sliding hatch mine would be mounted to the side walls of the coach roof using the aforementioned vertical plates.

It's not a priority of mine so it hasn't gone any further than just a thought.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 05:13:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I made a mod which didn't involve moving the traveler (keeping me class legal):-

It may not be too clear, but, on each side, the traveler line goes to a turning cheek block on the transom, to a turning block just above the cockpit floor, to a turning block on the side of the mid-cockpit and up to a cam cleat. Makes it easy for the crew to adjust and makes the traveler functionable.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Derek!

I could not get your link to work, even when I did a cut and paste directly into my browser? Can you send it again please?

I have toyed with changing the traveller on Confetti since 1976 and never came up with something that I liked enough to actually do the mod. The aft traveller gives me enough adjustment for my sails when sailing to weather, and the vang (and I also rig a preventer to the lee rail when appropriate) works fine when off the wind, at least for me).

However, adjusting the traveller is a royal pain, especially if we are tacking quite often since it is behind me. I have taken advantage of that however in heavier air and chop, by initially leaving it alone till AFTER the tack to allow the main to stay a little to leeward to help accellerate the boat back up to speed, then I hand the tiller to the next person forward of me in the cockpit and turn and adjust the traveller.

But, it would be a lot better to have the controls more handy to use!!

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 06:08:36

Correct me if I am wrong, but the class legal piece is to do with the traveller location and length - nothing else. So as long as you have a transom mounted traveller, and can limit the distance the car travels on it, there is no penalty.

I have been toying with the idea of a mod similar to what boomeroo shows pretty much since we bought the boat. A nice ball-bearing car with windward sheeting would be great. My thought is that for class legal racing all you have to do is put stops in the track at the location of the original traveller's limits.

I have priced this using a Garhauer stock setup and was surprised how easily it could be done on a reasonable budget. See here: http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=34 (Item MT-1 CT should do the trick)

Maybe next year. Or the year after. Or the year after.

Edited by - Prospector on 07/19/2012 08:11:19

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 06:59:38

Gary: In the archives I have run across a system using a removable traveler located there. The example one had it mounted to the cabin top, outside of the pop-top, and on mounts that are similar to Yakima or Thule roof rack mounts that are easily removable. I didn't like that approach because it blocked the only routing for running lines back to the cockpit, but your idea of mounting it on the cabin wall sides would fix that concern. It's a good idea, if you do pursue it I hope that you'll share photos.

Prospector: Thanks for the link to Garhauer, their pricing on these units is pretty good. I was thinking about moving ahead faster because my local West Marine has a pile of the old Harken small boat traveler kits marked down from $400ish to $250ish (that is all of the hardware minus the track). The Garhauer unit is close enough in price that I don't need to move too quickly.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 07:46:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Correct me if I am wrong, but the class legal piece is to do with the raveller location and length - nothing else. So as long as you have a transom mounted traveller, and can limit the distance the car travels on it, there is no penalty. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The last time I looked at the class rules (a long time ago), the essence of the rule was that the boat had to be equipped as it was equipped by the factory. You could interpret that, as you did, to mean that the traveler bar could be replaced with a track, as long as the track was the same length, or you could interpret it to mean that, if the traveler bar was broken, you had to replace it with an identical traveler bar. What I'm saying is that the rule is open to interpretation, and, as C25s age, and original parts become difficult to find and replace, perhaps it is a good time to re-think the rule, and make sure it doesn't prohibit minor alterations that don't significantly change the function of the parts. For the purpose of class racing, you shouldn't be allowed to change the location of the traveler, or the way it functions, but I don't really see any good reason why owners shouldn't be allowed to replace the bar with a track of equal length, or make similar alterations.

The neat thing about Derek's mod is that it uses all the original parts. He simply extended the control lines, so that he could route them forward of the helm, and operate them from there. All the original hardware is still there and in use. In my mind, there's no question that it is class legal, even under the existing rule.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 08:21:15

I agree Steve. My traveller is in good shape right now, but the Catalina traveller car is less than ideal, and the stock bar is prone to coming loose. If either the car or the bar goes on mine, I'll be puttin g an order in to garhauer in a heartbeat.

every spring they show up at teh Toronto Boat show, and while the throngs are milling about the harken booth, and being given flashy pens and loot bags, the Garhauer guy is handing out solid advice, quiet quality, and good prices. Their boat show prices are really very good. I like them a lot. Every year I want to give them some business, but the right circumstances of money, time, and projects haven't presented themselves yet.

I also L-O-V-E their take on sheetleads. I am sure I will have a pair of them one day.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 07/19/2012 : 13:31:06

In the C-22 National Sailing Association, it is class legal to bolt a T-track to the original traveler bar so long as the traveler car cannot move any farther out than the original bar allows. Since the stock cockpit layout is the same on both the C-22 and C-25, it should be allowable on the C-25 as well. From a racing standpoint, not cruising because it can be a knee-knocker, the best modification I've seen, and have on our boat, is a barney post for the main sheet. Almost all gold fleet C-22 racers are using it. Some of us also use turning blocks to bring the traveler lines down to the cockpit floor and up to the middle of the cockpit seats. The barney post moves the main sheet cleat to the center of the cockpit and eliminates the need for the helmsman to turn around to adjust the main. He/she can also sit farther forward without a tiller extension and still maintain main sheet control. The crew can also help with the main if needed.
The major drawback with using one on a C-25 is that the cockpit is a little bit shorter, so leg room could become an issue.

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
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Australia
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Response Posted - 07/20/2012 : 04:11:50

Alex , You are absolutely correct , the track does limit the tiller being lifted compared to the standard rod type.
I keep think its a problem but have never actually needed to lift the tiller so guess it isn't - a problem . Its clear of knees in the cockpit so isn't a cruising issue for me ..

Regarding The Boom vang vs Traveller . The traveller is the best way to control mainsail shape and power. Down and on hard to flatten the main in heavy breeze and well up and eased to power up in the light. In very heavy breeze you ease the main sheet allows the main to back wind but reduces drive with a fuller shape due to the boom rising ,unless you can hold it down with a very powerful boom vang .
Lasers use this system ( super vanging) but it puts great (breakable) load on the boom if you dont ease the vang before a reach or jibe

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