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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Replacing deadlights (windows) need advice

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 06/24/2012 : 08:38:52

OK, I need to replace my windows. I did this once on a C22 so I have some knowledge but could use some more info. So, if you have replaced any of the windows on your C250 please post any advice.

I am especially interested in how to apply pressure to the outside of the windows to push them into the adhesive and make the slight bends that are required. Most of the examples I have found are on boats that have the side windows above the deck and people use the stanchions and toe-rail as leverage points. But our windows are below the deck. I am thinking of strong bungees from beneath the rub rail (hull/deck joint) to the jib car track and then placing wood blocks between the bungee and windows. Get those creative juices going - I need ideas.

And if you've ever wanted to remove windows from a boat here is your chance. I'd be happy to let you help. It is great fun! Hey, it worked for Tom Sawyer....

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 09:44:27

I had them professionally replaced on my C&C last year, and the installer had some black 2-sided adhesive tape, about 1/4" wide. He lined the window opening with the tape, and it held them in place until he caulked the windows and until the caulk was able to set up. My windows also were slightly curved.

I don't know the manufacturer of the tape, but if you call the window caulk manufacturer's customer service line, I'll bet they can tell you where to find it.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 09:56:46

After coming up with a method for a C25, I came up with this idea. Although, I am not sure if the lifelines on a C250 extend fore and aft enough for this:

I guess you would make as many as needed to apply pressure to the entire window

Edited by - Davy J on 06/24/2012 10:03:21

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 10:40:12

Harbor Freight sells [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/dual-cup-suction-lifter-46134.html"]suction cups[/url] that you could use to pull the windows in toward the cabin with. Used in conjunction with Davy J's idea you should be able to apply pretty good pressure.

You might be able to use 3M's heavy duty double sided tape to stick them in place before caulking?

Now, where's that whitewash?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 12:35:25

I *knew* the forum members would have some great ideas!

Keep them coming!

Steve, I am tempted to have this done professionally but also have a sense that it would be pretty costly. What do you look up to find businesses that do this?

Gary, very clever and the C250 lifelines do cover the entire area. If I did this I might U-bolt a 2X2 between the stanchions and run the ropes off of that to minimize flex. For the weight I could hang a gallon jug from an eyebolt at the end of the rope and adjust the amount of water in it to match what is needed.

David, I like the suction cup idea as well. I could bungee the handle to the mast post, rigging rod, or something else inside. Do you think the suction cups would just pull the protective paper off the windows? If I removed the paper could the suction hurt the plastic?

All, in doing a bunch of research I always see people put down lots of Dow 795 and then push the windows into it as both a flexible bond and a caulk. I'm pretty sure that is how Catalina does it. This is the first I have heard of using double-sided tape to hold the window and then caulking around it. The tape idea does have appeal and would certainly be easier and less of a mess. Hmmm.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/24/2012 12:45:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 14:31:43

The cost of having my 4 big windows replaced was about $2700. It took the installers about 3 days. I seriously considered doing it myself, but am glad I had it done, because it's a big job. The hardest part is removing the old windows and the old caulking. After the old windows were removed, the installer used a 4 1/2" grinder to remove the old caulking material. The grinder removed it fairly well, but you have to be very careful, because a slip of the grinder can damage the opening.

The replacement acrylic or lexan is very expensive generally, but I found that you can buy it on Ebay much cheaper.

I don't know where you would find a shop that could replace marine windows. I suppose I'd find the biggest used boat dealer in a major sailing center, perhaps Portland, and ask them who they would recommend for that work. They would probably know.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/24/2012 14:37:03

zeil
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 16:32:31

Randy... located a nearly forgotten article, Portlight Replacement", published some time ago in the Good Old Boat magazine. Inadvertently I filed only the first page of the article which describes adhesives and not the install part. Feel free to contact Karen at GOB and request the article or, if you wish, I could forward the first half of what I have on file...

It would seem that the following procedure could work. The C-250 has a hull/deck joint cavity which can easily be used to secure some wood members. To the inside of the stanchions you would also be able to secure a horizontal wood member. Between the two horizontal wood members, below and above the lights, you will be able to attach vertical wood members at whatever window location needed and attach wooden, felt lined and window-shaped pressure points to hold and embed the window in the desired shape to the frame until the caulking sets.

Installing forward/deck windows can be approached in a similar way by attaching wood members along the stanchions allowing wood cross members from port to starboard above the lights at the most strategic pressure points

You will have to fine-tune and dry-run the procedure but it'll provide you with a starting point

Edited by - zeil on 06/24/2012 16:38:24

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 16:39:32

Or you cold just have a cabin top cover made or use a tarp and not worry about it.

Edited by - on

zeil
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 17:08:37

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 18:11:49

I believe the suction cups would be the easiest and cleanest solution as David mentioned. Use two or three on the inside along with a ratchet strap on each to a fixed place inside the boat. Ratchet the strap until you get the desired pressure. This should allow a great deal of adjustment one click at a time to get it just right.

The suction cups should have rubber cups so shouldn't scratch the windows. I'd try a dry run with the protective film on to see if the cups have a tendency to pull the film off.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 19:45:03

Thanks Guys! Henk, I think this is the [url="http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/portlight_replace/page01.htm"]GOB windows replacement[/url] replacement article, correct? Your diagram presents another good approach to this job.

Steve, I was afraid that a pro would be expensive. Looks like an owner-labor job for me. I agree the removal and clean up will be the hardest part. I read in some article that a power tool with a wire brush attachment is good. I don't trust myself with a grinder near the boat!

By the way I spent some time today checking the windows out. Looks to be about 1/8" - 3/16" of Dow 795 under each window.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/24/2012 19:51:24

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 19:52:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I read in some article that a power tool with a wire brush attachment is good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's what worked for me;
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23031& SearchTerms=windows

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zeil
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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 20:56:10

Yes... and thanks for posting the article's address. Keep us in the loop with descriptions and plenty of pictures when work is underway...

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/24/2012 : 22:33:22

Since I'm not sure which windows you're working on, you might be able to make a block to span the gap in the bilge, then run a strap up from the block high enough to get a straight pull between the windows. That way you keep from adding a shearing force to the pull. You want the applied tension to be as close to perpendicular as you can get it. I'd remove the paper/plastic protection film from the plastic, you won't get a good seal with the suction cups. I'd also use some sort of wetting agent on them to get the best adhesion. Hand cleaner gel comes to mind, it's alcohol based & will be unlikely to damage the lens, but maybe test it on the old one(s) first. If you're concerned, just use water with some detergent in it (detergent makes it "wetter").

Edit: thought about this a bit and realized you'd need to pull on both windows at the same time. I think the suggestion to use a ratchet strap would be good. Possibly you could attach it to the lip of the settee to get a straight enough pull. Just take the lid out so it's not in the way.

Edited by - delliottg on 06/24/2012 22:36:59

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 03:44:08

Davy's sketch comes closest to what Catalina provided me when I bought a replacement port from them. I have the original sketch (for the Cat 25 w/o aluminum frame design (which is similar to current production ports) but I cannot access it here from work. I have it attached to my website but not as a link that one can easily access. I will have to remember to provide it here tonight. The Cat drawing shows the use of a weight supported by a frame that rests on the port using the weight/gravity as only menas to secure the port & adhesive. The frame is supported in place by the lip on the deck but Davy's method using the lifeline certainly will work as well.

For those with the last generation of Cat 25's, the ports had screws to hold down the port but Catalina had issues with the screws especially with those that then ordered replacement ports and wound up cracking the port when they tightened down on the screws. The present design has no screws because experience with the adhesive indicated the adhesive was sufficient for a tight leak proof bond and so those with the ports using screws and need a port replacement, Catalina can still provide support if a tracing of the port is made and sent to them so they can cut an exact sized port. It is then shipped without the screws holes as they are no longer needed and the weight/frame is sued to obtain a tight seal utilizing the adhesive which Catalina can also provide. I bought a replacement port about 3-4 years ago due to a crack in one port. But I had sealed it with 3M 4200 and the since the port does not leak and is not that much of an eyesore, I have put off replacing the port.

I'll try and remember to load Catalina's weight/frame sketch onto this posting tonight.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/25/2012 : 20:52:37

I added the tech info from catalina to the bottom of my opening website page. Here is the link direct to it:
http://catalina25.homestead.com/WindowReplacement.html

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JohnMD
Navigator

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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 19:25:07

Search for the author Johnmd. I did this years ago and wrote about it here.

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JohnMD
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 19:50:04

Look for johnmd and the search term 'windows'.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 07:28:13

John, I had already found and bookmarked your threads. Do you have any additional detail you could share? I am especially curious about:

How much 795 (depth) did you apply?
How did you stop the 795 from all squeezing out?
How did you smooth the excess 795 from the window exteriors to form a nice seal/seam?

Also, did you use the duct tape and wadded up cloth as your final means to press the window in place? Did that work well for you? Any photos of the process?

Thanks. It is helpful to learn from someone who has done this!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/27/2012 07:28:28

JohnMD
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 13:31:28

Not a whole lot. Maybe an eight of an inch. You really have to get just enough and not too much. Mask the inside and outside where you don't want the sealant to get (masking tape). Take a popsicle stick and smooth a bead to fill the area where the window overlaps the boat surface. Again, not too much, but, be sure to fill the entire area. Any big voids will be noticed. If you need to, you can use your finger to smooth it or wipe it off. We filled the gap and duct taped the windows on (it's not that much of a bend). After they set up over night, we went back the next day and filled the gap around the window on the outside of the boat, again using a finger to smooth it. If some squishes out on the inside, wait till it dries and use a razor blade to help get the tape off. Do a small test area and you'll figure out how much glue to use.

It's really not that bad a job. That glue is incredible. It's still holding and looks just as good as the factory.

If I can find some pictures I will get back to you.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 15:42:53

Thanks John. Getting info from someone who has actually done this job is very helpful. Davy used a wire wheel to get off the old adhesive/sealant. What technique did you find succesful?

Edited by - on

JohnMD
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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 09:38:09

The old glue is just like chewing gum. I scraped it with a variety of putty knives and used acetone to soften / clean it up. I was worried about messing up the gelcoat under the old glue.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 10:32:36

Would this stuff help?
http://www.marineformula.com/

Paul

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 12:35:24

Thanks John. Paul, I sent them an e-mail asking if it is effective on Dow 795. If it is it looks promising.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 13:35:21

Prompt response from Marine Formula. He is sending me a free 2oz bottle to try out. I told him that if it works he will sell a lot of this stuff to boaters who need to remove their windows and the Dow 795 used to adhere/seal them.

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zeil
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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 19:19:46

We're following with much interest... when you'd think of it and have the time, we'd love to see your photo's and detailed procedure description.

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