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Emergency: Electrical problems.

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dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/26/2012 : 12:16:35

Currently on a mooring buoy off Blake Island Puget Sound. Yesterday on the way to Whidbey Island under power with heavy wind and waves in our face, our engine started running rough and eventually died. Wouldnt restart as if it had seized. Luckily a power boater towed us to a buoy as we had sailed over to Blake but got becalmed.

After a bit of fiddling I was able to get the engine running. Miracle!

We had dinner and relaxed. It got dark and I went to turn on the anchor light. Master switch light went on but when I attempted to turn anything else on - running lights, cabin, etc. the master goes out and there's no power. My inverter connected directly to the battery works fine.

This morning we decided we need to head home. Engine started right up. Let it run/idle for a bit and shut it down. Finished preparing to leave and then restarted right back up. We left the buoy fine but other electrics still not working.

Got a ways out and the engine died again in the same way. Shuts down to where it sounds like its seized. Now we're back on the buoy.

I'll add that after the engine died the first time and we were to the buoy the depth sounder and knot meter were on and working fine. Seems that only after everything was shut down and then turned back on that this new issue came up.

This clearly seems to be an electrical issue. Bad battery? Ground, or other fault/short circuit? I have a 9.9 Yamaha with inboard controls and it does have an alternator to charge the deep cycle and starter batteries. At the marina it stays plugged in and charged so the battery should be topped off.

Any help is appreciated. I'm going to start poking around and see if I can identify anything else.

1981 C25 TR/FK Dragonfly

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 16:24:59

Disconnect teh electric from teh the engine to teh boat and try again. You can pull-start, and the engine can run without the alternator hooked up. At least mine has for teh past 5 years.

Is water coming out of the engine like it should be?

Do you have power to all circuits on your panel?

How many volts are your batteries putting out? Is the lead to teh battery rubbing against anythign metal, or are the two wires rubbing against each other and shorting out (acting as a kill switch would)?

How long have you had the boat and are these problems new based on your previous experience or has something similar happened in the past?

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 17:56:19

This hasn't happened before. I've had the boat since may 2008. I check the water levels once per year but hadn't this year. The starter battery is a little low but not awful. The house deep cycle was dry as a bone. I got some distilled water and topped it off. It's on a shore charger now. Tomorrow I'll swap it for the starter battery and charge that too. Both batteries are 10 years old but haven't been a problem. I think I'll be replacing both for sure now for piece of mind. Measuring battery charge levels and health I don't have anything on board to do that.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 18:01:16

I wonder if you have a short in one battery that is drawing down the other and killing the engine.

Are you still stranded, or have you gotten home now?

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 18:21:14

Still stranded. If the battery charging doesn't work we have a plan b and a plan c, with c being a tow to our marina about three hours away. Doesn't sound like fun to me.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 18:25:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dragonf1y
 The house deep cycle was dry as a bone.

Both batteries are 10 years old
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Replace both batteries. Let the electrics completely dry out before installing new batteries.

EDIT - Consider this is "Internet Advice"....I'm not there to troubleshoot or look at anything.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 05/26/2012 18:26:27

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9040 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 19:25:40

"dry as a bone"... That's a totally ruined battery that could cause worse problems if you don't take it out of service. What "dries" batteries out is internal shorts that generate hydrogen and oxygen gas, and potentially a considerable amount of heat. Or it could be a bad voltage regulator on your outboard, but that's somewhat less likely. If you're running in parallel with the other battery (as with the battery switch on "Both"), the bad one will take the other one out as well, at which point the internal short in the bad battery will also take out your ignition.

First, take the battery that went dry out of the system, and run only on the other one. That might get you home--no guarantees from me from this vantage point...

Never re-fill a "dry" battery--replace it... unless you want to have this happen. And if you run with two batteries in parallel (as with a 1-2-Both-Off switch), replace both at the same time with identical batteries.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/26/2012 19:31:03

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 22:08:27

Prospector, I did try pull starting today but there was a lot of resistance and it didn't seem like it was going to have a chance of starting like that. Can I just disconnect power at the batteries and will that perhaps disengage the starter or whatever is causing the resistance? If I can disconnect the batteries and get home on a pull start I'd prefer that over running these old batteries and hoping they get me home or getting BoatUS to come out and bring me new batteries. Thanks.

Edited by - on

dolivaw
Navigator

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USA
109 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 22:31:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dragonf1y
 Prospector, I did try pull starting today but there was a lot of resistance...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you sure it's in neutral? Mine won't start and it's difficult to pull if it's in gear.

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 22:59:12

Yeah definitely in neutral. I'll try again in the morning.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2012 : 23:04:04

Daniel,
Just sent you an email, let me know if we can help. Do you have a towing rider on your insurance?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 05:53:16

With my old Evinrude 9.9, if it gave me a hard time starting, I found that spinning the flywheel a half turn or so by hand would make it easy to start. I have no logical explanation for this, but it got me out of many jams, and worked on teh club's coach dinghy when the instructors were stranded as well.

Disconnect the battery, Make sure its in Neutral, remove the cover, turn the flywheel by hand, pull start.

I know it sounds like voodoo.

I am assuming that you have already cleared out all the simple checks like making sure the vent is open on the tank, the fuel hose is not pinched, the fuel line has a good seal at both ends, etc. and that no catastrophic noises were heard, and that you have checked the prop to be sure nothing is wrapped around it, no rocks have been hit, bending a drive shaft, etc.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/27/2012 05:56:39

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4291 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 10:57:04

I believe a lot of these motors have an automatic compression release that helps make it easier to start. If that release valve sticks or fails you will be pulling against the full compression.

I may be totally wrong about all of the above so take it with a grain of salt.

Does your motor have oil injection? If it does are you sure the reservoir has oil in it and the oil pump is working?

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 15:33:35

Well apparently my valve is stuck because it won't turn over. I can feel the compression. I went through the manual quickly before we went ashore but didn't see anything about releasing it if there is a valve and it's stuck. I also checked the engine oil. Showing up on the dipstick but very sparse. Not sure if that's due to the engine being tilted up all night or not. Going to tilt it down while I install the charged batteries. I don't really intend to use them to get home. I'd like to make due with the starter motor only but my boat only wants to start with both batteries selected. There are two sets of leads to the compartment and then a jumper between the two grounds on the batteries. I do have a 2,all, 1 selector.

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 15:40:36

Got the engine running. I think we're going to spend the night at Blake Island and head back tomorrow. Well have favorable winds and won't have to motor. Obnoxious conditions earlier. It sounded bad but I think the engine just got waterlogged or the electrics got wet. Shame.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 18:29:54

I'm glad to hear that you got it working. We were down in that area last night (not on the forums or I'd have tried to contact you) and had a really easy sail back up to the locks today. There was a steady but not too strong wind coming out of the south. Hopefully you have something similar tomorrow.

Do you have to make it through the locks, or do you have moorage on the sound?

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 18:49:01

Actually that was an inadvertent post. Had the wrong text in my clipboard on my phone apparently. Got the batteries back in and the cabin lights and other lights are now working. I just tested them for a second. I checked my engine oil and it's very low. I was able to find some. Going to put it in and test start shortly. If it starts I'm going to let it run for awhile and put it under load so I can see if it dies again after a bit. If that works out I think tomorrow we'll sail over to Seattle and buy some new batteries before heading home. Maybe get some ice and stay in Bell Harbor for the night. Fingers crossed.

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 19:39:51

Engine oil in and it started up the second try. It's idling now. I'm really torn as to weather I should let it continue to run and further charge the batteries or if I should count my blessings, turn it off and try sail home tomorrow turning it on only to get into the marina. Wind is out of the southwest tomorrow predicted. Won't be really fun but possibly to get us to des Moines marina as we need to travel SE.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 19:39:54

Daniel,
I sent my phone number in email, if you need help tomorrow, let me know. I can meet you at Bell Harbor (or wherever) with tools or whatever you might need to get you guys home. I've also got a 5 HP engine I can loan you. The only caveat there is that it's a short shaft, so you may not be able to get the prop into the water.

Looks like you'll have decent weather & wind tomorrow if you have to sail the whole way.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4291 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 19:51:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dragonf1y
 Engine oil in and it started up the second try. It's idling now. I'm really torn as to weather I should let it continue to run and further charge the batteries or if I should count my blessings, turn it off and try sail home tomorrow turning it on only to get into the marina. Wind is out of the southwest tomorrow predicted. Won't be really fun but possibly to get us to des Moines marina as we need to travel SE.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I wonder if the fact that it was low on oil might have been causing some of the problems. On Honda lawnmowers they have a low oil shutdown that will kill the motor or prevent it from starting. Also if the oil is too dirty it won't let it start.

If your motor has that feature and you were getting close to the shutdown point the wave action might have caused it to cut in and out.

As they say on Mythbusters - it's Plausible.

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2012 : 21:14:31

Yeah I don't know about the oil but that certainly could have been part of it. We ran the engine for 30 minutes. 10 minutes at idle, 10 minutes in neutral at varying revs, and 5 minutes reverse under load, and 5 minutes half throttle ( what we'd normally cruise at ). All fine. I think we're going to leave it for now. Charge our phones and use the cabin lights sparingly to go to bed. We'll fire it up tomorrow to get off the buoy and give one last test before we sail home hopefully. My wife isn't keen on buying new batteries tomorrow she just wants to go home so considering how she's rolled with the punches that's what we're going to try and do. Thanks again everyone. Youve all been helpful and great.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4291 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 08:47:14

Good luck Dragonfly. Hope all goes well.

Sounds like your wife is a real trooper so take her out and wine and dine her when you get back.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 09:36:00

Good luck with the route home! The batteries aren't very important for making it home, so your new plan sounds like a good one.

Edited by - on

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 18:58:45

We got home fine today. I'll have to go battery shopping and give the engine a proper service and going over.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 19:39:11

Glad to hear it.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5298 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2012 : 20:29:43

Wow, what an ordeal! Any time I plan a trip that's more than an easy sail away, I try to have a backup plan. In Long Island Sound, we've got railroad service on the north shore (NH RR aka Metro North and Amtrak) and on the south shore - the Long Island Railroad.

That said, anything can happen as you illustrated in your post, and sometimes we cannot quickly diagnose the problem. Being 16 miles wide in parts, you can be very far away from help in LI Sound which can take several hours to traverse under the best of conditions.

In your case, you lost your electric supply, so smart phone recharging power and lighting were affected.
And since your engine became iffy, a double fault is usually a worst case scenario - one that's difficult to plan for and resolve.

Some might say that preventive maintenance provides its own rewards - but that's little consolation when you get zinged by problems that are hard to spot or are not a part of your usual routine.

I was spared a similar problem this spring when my engine's water pump impeller failed a week before I launched. It could have happened a week or two later, and could have had disastrous, or at least very inconvenient results.

I got lucky. This has motivated me to amp up the preventative maintenance. I'll check the battery, engine oil, nav lights, wiring chafe, VHF, GPS, keel bolts, sea-cocks and through hulls. Halyards & sheaves and mast rigging are another matter.

But a double failure puts us in a truly tough spot. Glad all worked out well for you and your wife.

Edited by - on

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