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C22 or C25 for a young couple?

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Voyager
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Initially Posted - 02/26/2012 : 11:11:25

[Note - posted here, not to hijack Sean's (av8rOC) thread on "Which keel for LIS?"]

One of the younger guys at my local WM boating store told me he's been sailing for years and knows I have a C25.

He asked me about whether a C25 would be big enough for sailing with he and his wife, and whether it would be good for sailing all around LI Sound and out to Naragansett Bay, Block Island and Cape Cod and the Islands.

He also mentioned that he thought a Catalina 22 would be closer to his budget (~$2000-3000). I was thinking about several posts on the Forum on this, so I told him I thought he'd be way better off taking his money to use as a downpayment and move up to an older C25, rather than going with the C-22. I also invited him to join this Forum.

With all the nice boats available and deals out there, how would you advise him? I should see him next week.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - on

blanik
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 11:25:17

you can compare those to a tent vs. a camping trailer, i went in a 22 once, it felt like a enclosed dinghy, you can't stand up in those, i'd definitively wait for a C25 (unless he wants to trailer)

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 12:14:31

We were a young couple - once upon a time.

We had a C22 and sailed it for a few years, on both San Francisco Bay and the Delta. Best move was up to the C25. Like a Titanic compared to the C22, which WAS camping.

The C25 has taken us out on the ocean and all over the place.

Tell him to go bigger now. He won't regret it.

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 13:38:41

I too would hedge toward the C25. I had a C22 for several years. Great boat, we camped on her for up to a week at a time. Had no idea how much space I was missing till we got on the C25. The size/comfort of the C25 was huge. The cockpit is very much the same. The cabin is where it shines. Also the added weight makes for a more solid less tender feel. The size also made for a faster boat. Not that we were in a hurry to get anywhere but it was nice to not be the last boat in

But budget is the driving force. Watch for deals and sail on both to see which fits best.

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 02/26/2012 13:40:57

Peregrine
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 13:44:38

"...sailing all around LI Sound and out to Narragansett Bay, Block Island and Cape Cod and the Islands. "

Those plans definitely call for a C-25. I think they would be miserable and somewhat at risk in anything smaller.

BTW - IMO a fin keel is best for the Sound plenty of depth in most harbors and sails like a dream.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 15:26:19

The C-22 is a nice day-sailer/camper inside Long Island Sound... Past Watch Hill Passage, it's a little too dinghy-ish for my taste--lighter weight, flatter bottom, lower freeboard, and much greater ability to capsize. The C-25 is about 80% heavier than the C-22, and has a significantly lower capsize ratio, (which is a somewhat simplistic estimate of its tendency to go over and not recover).

A key advantage of the C-22, for some people, is that it truly qualifies as a "trailer-sailer," with reasonable set-up and take-down efforts. I consider the C-25 to be "transportable," but not meant for trailer-sailing. Also, from my vague recollection, the C-22's cockpit might actually be bigger, due to the transom being wider.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/26/2012 15:28:03

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 15:57:36

Having only owned 25 footers, I have a tendency to think of the C25 as being on the small side so I'd imagine a C22 would feel dinghy-ish to me. When in doubt, go big.

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islander
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 16:39:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We had a C22 and sailed it for a few years, on both San Francisco Bay and the Delta. Best move was up to the C25. Like a Titanic compared to the C22, which WAS camping.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> How come I just know that somewhere this discussion has come up on some forum but replace the C25 with C30 and C22 with C25

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 18:51:07

Scott,
I hear you!

I've known sailors with brass cugliones who've sailed incredible passages under horrendous conditions in 15 ft dinks, but for the rest of us, even Cape Cod and the Islands (not to mention the Chesapeake, Albemarle & Pamlico Sounds, Deception Pass, Mobile Bay) are ambitious destinations for our C25s.

So even in 6ft easterly chop out on LI Sound, I've felt a wee bit insecure, I could only imagine the sensation in a C22.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 20:13:28

If he's a young, first time cruiser buyer, I'd recommend he buy the C-22, trailer-sail it (especially if you live close to the water), and invest the purchase price difference, dockage fees, extra cost of bigger motor, bigger sails, etc. for the next 30 years in good quality mutual funds. Then he'll be able to easily pay cash for a good used 25-30 footer, maybe pay cash for his kids' college, too!
I hate to think of what the present value today would be, at a conservative 5%, of just the dockage fees I've paid over the past 25-30 years.
Also, if he isn't fully funding his 401k plan, and have 3-6 months' expenses saved up in an emergency fund, he should not be buying a boat at all.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/26/2012 20:15:22

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 20:15:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 If he's a young, first time cruiser buyer, I'd recommend he buy the C-22, trailer-sail it (especially if you live close to the water), and invest the purchase price difference, dockage fees, extra cost of bigger motor, bigger sails, etc. for the next 30 years in good quality mutual funds. Then he'll be able to easily pay cash for a good used 25-30 footer, maybe pay cash for his kids' college, too!
I hate to think of what the present value today would be, at a conservative 5%, of just the dockage fees I've paid over the past 25-30 years. Getting out of that part of it next month!
Also, if he isn't fully funding his 401k plan, and have 3-6 months' expenses saved up in an emergency fund, he should not be buying a boat at all.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well spoken Dave Ramsey!

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 20:25:07

I didn't want to be the one to mention his name, and be accuse dof shameless advertising, but I do listen to him regularly now, especially since he's a local guy. Wish I had had the sense to pay attention to him years ago, but I had 2-footitis!

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rrick
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 21:01:08

As WM employee his budget is unique. You should suggest the items he may need so he can associate price them, because the benefit varies. Ask him to help you find "shore lines" next time your in the store, it always gets them ha ha.

Edited by - rrick on 02/26/2012 21:03:31

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/26/2012 : 21:27:08

Actually, if one trailer sails then they would have to purchase a capable tow vehicle ($$$) and with today's fuel prices ($$$), having to drive a 15mpg truck as your everyday vehicle can be quite painful at the pump. Next consider the price premium incurred when buying a boat with a decent trailer and the ongoing maintenance costs of it. After running the numbers, it may be more advantageous to buy a boat sans trailer, wet slip it, then store it on a cradle in a yard in the off season.

I know more than a few older sailors whose only regret was that they didn't get into sailing when they were much younger. I was thirty years old when I bought my first boat, a 25 footer, and I wish I had done it when I was twenty.

Edited by - dlucier on 02/26/2012 21:38:53

pastmember
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 07:31:33

As with all discussions on this site the venue is everything. My slip fee for 2012 is $450 for the year, I would be a fool to drysail.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:06:38

When we bought our C-22 in 1977, slip rent was $240 per year and insurance was about $75. Today those figures are $1,240 and $205. Add in the C-25 5 years ago...

Of course the fun we've had with the boats is priceless!!

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islander
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:18:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My slip fee for 2012 is $450 for the year, I would be a fool to drysail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Totally agree Frank but up her in the Conn. LI area having a boat on a trailer is a big savings even if you kept it on a trailer for the winter at home and at a Marina for the summer. I pay $1300 for the winter storage and $3200 for the summer slip. Also if you keep the boat at home you can do bottom painting yourself. The Marina will not allow us to touch the bottom, you have to hire them for environmental reasons.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:22:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 When we bought our C-22 in 1977, slip rent was $240 per year and insurance was about $75. Today those figures are $1,240 and $205. Add in the C-25 5 years ago...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When adjusted for inflation, the '77 prices are about equivalent to today's.

What Frank said about venue cost is spot on. Most non-boaters think I must be made of money to own a sail boat, but I usually reply with, "I sail because it's cheaper than golf or going to the movies!"

Edited by - dlucier on 02/27/2012 08:23:05

JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:27:31

I posted part of this in the other thread, and am copying it here for completeness:

Do they have kids, or plan on having them soon? The C25 is a MUCH better fit for a family, IMHO. Like av8rOC, I have two kids, and need the space for them, and my wife and me, to stretch out. Plus, the added space makes it much more comfortable to have guests aboard.

The C25 is a nice size, too, if he's new to boating. This is my first boat (my parents had powerboats when I was a kid and into my teens - I went for rides, steered, etc., but never did too much with the boats on my own), and after the first few times docking her, etc., you realize that it isn't so bad. I don't know that I'd want to cut my teeth on a 30+, but a 25 is "do-able" as a first boat. It offers so much more in the way of comfort and convenience, too, that it's really a no-brainer unless, as others have discussed, the desire is to trailer-sail.

IMHO, the advantage of trailer sailing is that you can go anywhere you want, and fairly quickly, since you're moving at highway speeds. To that end, a C22, or even a Diller Schwill, would be great for being able to pack up and drive to Florida to visit my parents, for example. But as a practical matter, I'm lucky to be able to take a week away without work obligations needing me back in the office. As a result, I'm limited to somewhere in the 7-10 day vacation range, and I would lose a lot of that vacation time to travel if I trailer sail, so most of my trailer sailing would wind up being local. At that point, since I'm stuck staying local, then I may as well have a bigger boat on which I can be comfortable. Furthermore, if he doesn't have a yard in which to store the boat for the winter, he'll be paying storage fees either way. The yards I looked at in the NJ area charge less if you have your own trailer, but it was still $500-$800 regardless of whether the boat was on a trailer or stands.

Since he works at West Marine, and most of their stores are located near the water, I'm guessing that he probably lives close enough to the water, too, that he doesn't NEED to be at a marina. So a slip behind someone's house becomes a much more "real" possibility, thus keeping his costs down. From what I've seen at the NJ shore, those private slips are typically the same price regardless of the size of the boat, so no real disadvantage to having a 25 over a 22 there, either.

I will note that we're geting into a tough time of year in which to be buying, because given a 2-3 week buying cycle, it will basically be time to get the boat out on the water. If there are repairs needed to the boat, it will delay launch, which will probably be a disappointment for them, and they'll pay a premium for a "ready to launch" boat. Granted, boats generally aren't selling that well these days, so maybe the premium won't be so high, but it's still a tough time.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:52:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 As with all discussions on this site the venue is everything. My slip fee for 2012 is $450 for the year, I would be a fool to drysail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is about what the equation looked like for us when we started, then the marina started with rate hikes, and now we are looking at $1400/yr (all-in which includes launch, storage, etc.) on Simcoe versus $200/month on Lake Ontario. For teh extra $1,000 per year I'll take the convenience adn added destinations, howeverm that upcharge alone is greater than my entire boating budget was 5 years ago.

This buyer should be aware that buying a boat is a long-term commitment, with many vagaries of what costs will do and that if it doesn't work for him, it will be very difficult to off-load his boat. I think the planned listing to sale schedule is somethign like 4 - 6 months around here, unless you have people drooling over your boat or price it very agressively.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 08:56:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 I will note that we're geting into a tough time of year in which to be buying, because given a 2-3 week buying cycle, it will basically be time to get the boat out on the water. If there are repairs needed to the boat, it will delay launch, which will probably be a disappointment for them, and they'll pay a premium for a "ready to launch" boat. Granted, boats generally aren't selling that well these days, so maybe the premium won't be so high, but it's still a tough time.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe not. At the yard where I store, I have to have the boat out when my storage contract expires at the end of May, and if it's not moved out by that time, I'm charged a summer rate storage fee premium intended to motivate one to get going. A seller may want to get his boat sold before incurring this extra cost and might be willing to drop the price further before they are hit with the bill.

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Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 09:20:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ...A seller may want to get his boat sold before incurring this extra cost and might be willing to drop the price further before they are hit with the bill.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and the seller may have already given up his slip for the coming season, and therefore may have nowhere else for the boat to go except home on a truck, which makes sea trials and selling a lot more difficult. But every boat out there has its own story... I'd say it's still a buyer's market.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/27/2012 09:22:01

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 09:42:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 [quote]Originally posted by dlucier
 I'd say it's still a buyer's market.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

With boats, it appears it's always a buyers market.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 16:03:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 With boats, it appears it's always a buyers market.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Everything's relative... Back in '06, I had to buy my way into the crowded production schedule for my new boat, and sold my C-25 in one day. (Actually it was about 36 hours after putting the ad up in the Swap Meet, because the buyers, who called about an hour later, couldn't get here the next morning.) I doubt either would be happening now...

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 16:20:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 [Note - posted here, not to hijack Sean's (av8rOC) thread on "Which keel for LIS?"]

One of the younger guys at my local WM boating store told me he's been sailing for years and knows I have a C25.

He asked me about whether a C25 would be big enough for sailing with he and his wife, and whether it would be good for sailing all around LI Sound and out to Naragansett Bay, Block Island and Cape Cod and the Islands.

He also mentioned that he thought a Catalina 22 would be closer to his budget (~$2000-3000). I was thinking about several posts on the Forum on this, so I told him I thought he'd be way better off taking his money to use as a downpayment and move up to an older C25, rather than going with the C-22. I also invited him to join this Forum.

With all the nice boats available and deals out there, how would you advise him? I should see him next week.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

C-25 for sure, you can get a whole lot more out of it. As far as trailer sailing, yeah that would be cool to be able to go out and check different lakes around here but he's at LIS so there's millions of places to go. On top of that, if every time I wanted to sail I had to rig the boat and then tear it down at the end of the day I know myself, I wouldn't sail as much. I love being able to just step on and go. Another plus of having a slip is the dock community. Sometimes we go out to the boat with no intention of taking her out and it's great to have some buddy's around when there's a task at hand, really everyone help everyone. For me it would be a no brainer, an older sound C-25, probably standard rig fin keel. C-22's are cool but they are tiny.

I think the C-25 is one of the best pocket cruisers ever and the best small boat that acts like a big boat. It's been an excellent first keel boat for us and worth every bit of the 6K I paid for her.

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Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 02/27/2012 : 19:05:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Also, from my vague recollection, the C-22's cockpit might actually be bigger, due to the transom being wider.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe a tad, but our C22 cockpit cushions fit perfectly on our C25 - we took them when we sold the C22 when we bought our C25.

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