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Removing grab handles and trim for refinishing

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/17/2011 : 12:20:19

In reading all the refinishing theads, I'm basically sold on Cetol, and I'm not trying to start (yet another) thread about finishes. Instead, I am curious whether it is necessary to remove the trim and handles from the boat. Yes, I see where that would make things easier, especially with as weathered as my pieces are. But part of me thinks that the trim is so weathered that I might be better off refinishing them in place. I can see how I could take the companionway boards home - that's a no-brainer, and the grab handles don't seem like they'll be too hard to remove, either. But the trim around the companionway itself has me a little (or more than a little) concerned.

Any suggestions?

Here's the current condition:

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - JimGo on 11/17/2011 12:23:40

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 12:46:01

Jim,
I think the biggest concern is Cetol stains gelcoat permanently. The taping will need to be perfect and any spatters will be a problem. Actually removing the wood is pretty easy. Putting it back on is more of a chore. I plan on doing maintenance coats while the wood is in place but my original coats were done with the wood removed. I do not think I could have done as good a job preparing the wood and smoothing the coats if I had left the wood attached.

Edited by - on

blanik
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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 13:28:46

i think the secret to a great job with Cetol is to remove the parts during the winter and take your time, you need at least 5-6 coats (3 coats of Natural Teak ans 2-3 coats of Marine Gloss, but the more the better, i did my whole woods wit a quart of each) you have to wait 24 hours between coats but you can't wait a whole week or you'll have to sand it, if you respect the 24 hours dry time between coats you don't need to sand, it'll "melt" with the previous coat) and the secret is to make the best job you can from the start, that way you can skip a couple of years between re-coatings, and the beauty of Cetol is that when re-coating you barely need to sand with a fine paper (not even a thorough sanding, just a roughing), a good cleaning with Varsol and you go, just put tape around the woods...

but for the initial refinishing take your time to sand them to bare wood with one of those "mouse" electric sanders, it'll be worth it, and removing the old sealer and resealing with fresh Sikaflex will give you another 20 years of trouble free hatch (this is the part where you need to prepare the area with masking tape around each wood panel so when the sealer squirts out of the part when you screw them back in place it won't mess the boat...

just tape a big strong plastic sheet over the whole hatch area after you remove the woods and bring them home for the winter (do the tiller also while you're at it) it's a fun and satisfying winter project

here's what my woods looked like before:

here's after:

Edited by - blanik on 11/17/2011 13:40:47

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 13:40:40

Blanik, that looks very nice! I'm not sure I understand the Sikaflex reference. Are you using that as an adhesive/sealant between the wood and the hull so there isn't any leakage at that joint? Any good suggestions on where to find Sikaflex at a good price?

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 13:45:32

OK, so now that I've read about Sikaflex, I see that it's a caulk/adhesive, and that makes more sense. Sorry! I also found a local distributor, which is good!

Edited by - on

blanik
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Canada
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 13:57:58

there are two camps about adhesive/sealer the 3M people and the Sikaflex people... :-D

(it's Sikaflex 291 in white, i also bought a Sikaflex 291 LOT (Long Open Time) in mahogany for the teak screw plugs but i wouldn't use it for anything else, it stays soft for too long, the regular 291 dries in an hour so you can tighten the screws some more at the end of the reinstalling job)

i guess they're pretty much the same thing it just happened that the old grey haired guy working at Boathouse, who happened to know a thing or two about refinishing, told me to get the Sikaflex, as it was the same price as the 3M but was a little better in his opinion, so i just bought it

the hatch "step" on the "before" picture was actually done with Epifanes since i assumed it would need more refinishing due to frequent stepping or sitting on it and since Epifanes dries in 1-2 hours only i figured it would be better for "on boat" refinishing during the summer...

another detail, between Cetol coats (you don't need a special dust free space, i did those in my apartment), just wipe Varsol on with a paper towel before the coat and wait until the Varsol has evaporated, you're then good to go, i used cheap foam brushes, 5$ for a bag of 24 and threw them in the garbage after each coating, trying to save a brush for the next coat in 24 hours is pointless, it'll just mess up the woods...

i would do a side then 12 hours later it would be dry enough to turn them around but not yet for another coat so i would do the other side then after 12 hours i would turn them again and do the second coat, that way every 12 hours i would be doing a side, it speeds up the process, i did about 10 coats on the tiller but it looks very nice! (when you refinish Cetol it's not because it chipped or faded, it's mostly to remove dings and scratches because that stuff don't chip or fade like varnishes, it's like a melted transparent plastic coat on the wood)

Edited by - blanik on 11/17/2011 15:11:18

JimGo
Admiral

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962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 15:30:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 Putting it back on is more of a chore. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Joe,
Is this because you took the time to rebed everything, or are there other reasons you think it's more of a chore?

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 16:28:33

Well you have to rebed the everything so you seal the screw holes against moisture plus the handles have a bend to them that releases once the handles are removed. When you reinstall you need to start with one end and work your way down the handle as you rebend the piece to the original bend. It is not a hard chore by any means but definitely made easier if you have someone to apply the bend while you secure the screws. Re-applying the trim is pretty much straightforward. Just go light on tightening the screws so you do not split the wood. Especially on the eyebrow pieces and hatch cover trim.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 11/17/2011 16:29:26

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 16:38:03

You mentioned concern about removing the companionway trim... The outer pieces are held by screws that are under the inside pieces. Remove the inside ones, and you can unscrew the outside ones. I found a considerable amount of brown goop--I scraped most of it off and then removed the rest with solvent.

My handrails were held by bolts and screws. The bolt heads were in the rails, under teak bungs. I removed the screws first, and then the nuts--the rails then pulled up easily leaving the bolts in place--they help re-bend the rails when you re-install them. I'll suggest a little WD-40 on the bolts before removing and before replacing the nuts--as long as the nuts turn freely, you should be able to remove and replace them without making the bolts turn under the teak bungs. If a bolt does turn, you can try pulling down as you turn the nut, or use pliers with a rag to hold the bolt, or cut a slot with a Dremel and use a screwdriver.

The big advantage to removing the teak, especially the handrails, is being able to sand them thoroughly to fresh wood. Cetol will not hide weathering and mildew. I used an orbital sander--it didn't take much to get to fresh, new looking teak.

My preference was not to put the clear gloss coat on top of the regular satin finish--I liked the satin look--purely taste. I think it also makes touch-ups simpler, since you shouldn't put satin Cetol over gloss. I've used Natural Teak, which I decided was yellower than I preferred, so I went back to the original Cetol Marine. Also, Practical Sailor found that Marine held up substantially better than Natural Teak--Marine was one of the best finishes in their tests, and Natural Teak one of the worst. Cetol says Natural Teak is a new formula--apparently it isn't "new and improved."

I rebedded with Boatlife Life Caulk--I recommend against anything considered to be "adhesive", especially any polyurethane caulks. They will make the next removal dicey--and can even pull the gelcoat off in the process. I've had some unfortunate experience with stuff somebody else used.

Have fun! The end result is highly rewarding!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/17/2011 16:44:41

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 17:23:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 . . . My handrails were held by bolts and screws. The bolt heads were in the rails, under teak bungs. I removed the screws first, and then the nuts . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

FWIW, my bolts began to spin on the first turn

Drilled out the bungs and dumped the bolts. Filled former bolt holes with G/Flex (great product)

Drilled new holes (for new sheet metal screws) from below.

Someone on sailnet recommended butyl tape - worked well for me and much less messy!!! Made holes in tape with straw.

Edited by - on

Chakana
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 17:33:23

Jim,
We are total newbies, but took all our trim off in 30 minutes with no problem.
I was scared to refinish it on the boat.
The only part that was even remotely problematic was the thin trim around the side storage areas in the cockpit--we had to be VERY careful with that.
We haven't begun to refinish it yet, but I did purchase the 'Te-Ka' system after reading reviews, for the cleaning. Not sure how we'll finish it yet.
Good luck!
Anna

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 17:36:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chakana
 . . . Not sure how we'll finish it yet . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I've gone away from and have come back to Cetol - to stay.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 17:38:35

Thanks Anna!

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 18:05:38

go for it

Edited by - pastmember on 11/17/2011 18:06:35

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2011 : 18:15:15

Not only did I remove my teak the first time, I put a couple coats of Cetol on the undersides to lessen the chance for moisture to wick up from underneath thus flaking off the finish from the sides. This was ten years ago and with the occasional every other year recoat, it still looks fantastic. Like Dave, I prefer the satin finish as I feel it blends in better against the thirty year old gelcoat. Also, I've never sanded before recoating, only giving the Cetol covered teak a good wipe with mineral spirits.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/18/2011 : 08:03:55

Thanks everyone! Frank, those look fantastic!

Edited by - on

Jefffriday
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2011 : 10:39:07

If you want to use a good brush, wrap it in Aluminum Foil and put it in the freezer between coats, They will last a very long time that way

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/18/2011 : 10:57:06

OK, one of my initial concerns with removing the wood was that rebedding was going to be a real PITA. I was originally thinking that I'd (essentially) have to use the process described here:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck

Now that I've read through the comments above and some other articles, it sounds like this is a more appropriate rebedding process for most of it:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware

Of course, the first article describes what is probably the preferred way to go, if you have the time. If my boat were on a trailer in my yard, I'd be tempted to follow that procedure. But, in this case, the butyl tape sounds like a good way to go for some of the connections, along with some SikaFlex on some of the other joints.

OJ, I see that you used the butyl on the horizontal surfaces like where the grab handles are supported against the cabin top. Did you also use it on the companionway trim? Or did you go with an adhesive/sealant to bond the companionway trim?

Edited by - on

Chakana
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/18/2011 : 16:50:31

Frank--awesome! What product did you use?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/18/2011 : 20:41:56

I don't know how many times we say it a year, but don't bed with adhesives because you may want to remove it sometime. Polysulfide is the bedding compound of choice. Butyl tape will eventually squeeze out and leak, but it's easy to work with and replace.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 11/18/2011 : 22:43:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 OK, one of my initial concerns with removing the wood was that rebedding was going to be a real PITA. I was originally thinking that I'd (essentially) have to use the process described here:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck

Now that I've read through the comments above and some other articles, it sounds like this is a more appropriate rebedding process for most of it:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware

Of course, the first article describes what is probably the preferred way to go, if you have the time. If my boat were on a trailer in my yard, I'd be tempted to follow that procedure. But, in this case, the butyl tape sounds like a good way to go for some of the connections, along with some SikaFlex on some of the other joints.

OJ, I see that you used the butyl on the horizontal surfaces like where the grab handles are supported against the cabin top. Did you also use it on the companionway trim? Or did you go with an adhesive/sealant to bond the companionway trim?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If it hasn't been done before, the first option is what you want. Option 2 is maintenance for every year or two after that.

Many owners have their boats on a rotation for rebedding hardware. This year port side, next year stbd, year 3 cockpit, or something similar. If you break it up a little its not so onerous, but the first thing you want to do is to seal everything up with the oversized/epoxied/drilled out holes - which also isn't really that hard to do.

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2011 : 19:27:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I don't know how many times we say it a year, but don't bed with adhesives because you may want to remove it sometime. Polysulfide is the bedding compound of choice. Butyl tape will eventually squeeze out and leak, but it's easy to work with and replace.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

isn't polysulfide the stuff they use to glue windshields in place? that stuff is quite waterproof but isn't it super adhesive?

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/19/2011 : 20:26:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chakana
 Frank--awesome! What product did you use?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lemon oil on all interior wood so it will not darken, Starbright Teak oil on all outside wood. (I am an oil guy, I like silvered teak. the OP's teak just looks well taken care of to me.

Edited by - pastmember on 11/25/2011 13:40:50

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2011 : 21:06:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by blanik
[brisn't polysulfide the stuff they use to glue windshields in place? that stuff is quite waterproof but isn't it super adhesive?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I just had a windshield put in, right in my driveway--should've asked... But among marine caulks, polysulfide (e.g. Life Caulk) is about the least adhesive, and polyurethane is the most. For bedding anyting to the deck, especially if you ever might want to replace or re-bed it, you don't want adhesion--just resilience. Apply the polysulfide to the piece, tighten the fasteners just enough to sqeeze it out all the way around, let it set for several days, and then crank down the fasteners to put pressure on the "gasket" that has formed. Then you can easily trim the excess away with a blade. (Don't try to clean up the excess before it sets--you'll make a mess.) You're good to go for many years.

But don't take my word... Check Practical Sailor.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 11/20/2011 : 15:54:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 . . . I see that you used the butyl on the horizontal surfaces like where the grab handles . . . Did you also use it on the companionway trim? Or did you go with an adhesive/sealant . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I didn't remove the companionway trim because I could easily sand all of the surfaces while still mounted to the boat. I did apply masking tape to the gel coat (surrounding the teak) to protect it.

Edited by - OJ on 11/20/2011 16:03:40

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/21/2011 : 11:52:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 I didn't remove the companionway trim because I could easily sand all of the surfaces while still mounted to the boat. I did apply masking tape to the gel coat (surrounding the teak) to protect it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was thinking about going that route with the companionway trim; that's what prompted my original question. Did you also do the same with the hatch slides? I probably will still take everything off, but it's good to know what others have done.

Thanks!

Edited by - on

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