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Single-handed configuration

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
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Initially Posted - 10/04/2011 : 21:17:18

Before anyone yells at me, I've been reading a lot of the old threads on the topic of single handing, honest!!! Despite reading those many threads, I still have some questions.

In many ways, my 25 feels like, and is operated like, the [url="http://www.sailingtexas.com/samerican146102.html"]American 14's[/url] on which I learned to sail. Heck, the 14's even had a centerboard (a.k.a., light weight swing keel). The rental place where I took my lessons had equipped them with roller furling jibs, so I was already spoiled in that regard, and am glad the C25 has one. However, unlike the 14's, which had cam cleats attached to the jib sheets, the jib sheets on the C25 tie off to cleats. I suspect that will make single-handing much more difficult (I'm one of those 'tiller in one hand, main sheet in the other' guys, and really like having the jib sheets closeby). So, with that as background, I have a few questions:

1) Do I need to go with rope clutches for the jib sheets, or are cam cleats OK? I really like how easy it is to dial everything in with a cam cleat, and would like the same convenience with the jib sheet. I'm guessing that clutches are more robust and able to handle the stress of a larger jib than the cam cleats.

2) I've never worked a rope clutch, and in most of the instructions/recommendations I've seen, the clutches are mounted atop the cabin. That's all the way on the other side of the cockpit, and seems too far to go when I want to lock down the clutch. Am I missing something in the way that they operate? I assume that by pulling on the sheet, the clutch pops free and the sheet is free to travel forward, but I need to depress the lever if I want to lock it, where on a cam cleat I just pull down and it locks. Again, perhaps I'm missing something.

3) Does the clutch need to be forward of the winch?

4) This one is the same basic question as my first, but would a clam cleat be appropriate for the jib furling line? It doesn't seem that the line gets much tension.

OK, I think that's it for starters. Sorry if these are silly questions, or if they've been covered before. So far, I haven't found the answers!

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - JimGo on 10/04/2011 21:19:47

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/04/2011 : 21:35:25

All questions are welcome here--we sometimes refer people to other threads because there might be more information than they'll get from responses on any given day...

Rope clutches are for high-load lines that stay "captured" in the clutch, which makes them unsuitable for sheets. You see them on the cabin-top for halyards, vang, cunningham, boom downhaul, main outhaul, etc... that are led back from the mast. With multiple clutches forward of a winch, you can flip a wrap or two around the winch to tension any of the lines.

I put two cam cleats on the coamings for my genoa sheets, and a smaller one with a fairlead on top (sorta like a micro-clutch) for the furler line. One issue with sheets coming off a winch is the lead angle to the cam cleat, which potentially pulls it up out of the cam. Some people solve this with risers for the cam cleat--I placed my cams so I could slip the sheet under one horn of the horn cleat and then snap it into the cam. You can see the furler cleat (bottom) and a jib cleat (lower-right) here...

I think somebody here (Don Lucier?) has installed jam cleats (one horn forms a V) in place of the standard horns, so he can do a single wrap around the base of the cleat rather than having to do a "cleat hitch". If I did that, I'd put the "jam" side forward so the first turn doesn't get "jammed" too hard. Others have used clam cleats for sheets--I'm not a big fan of them for a secure hold on a line that's getting tossed around in a cockpit.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/04/2011 22:02:02

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/04/2011 : 22:01:31

Thanks for the quick reply! Your answer, of course, begs additional stupid questions. I have 2 winches, and if I use them the way you have yours set up, that effectively dedicates both winches to the jib. That's OK. But what about the main halyard? I can see where the winch would be advantageous for hoisting the mainsail. If I put a clutch on the main halyard forward of the winch, I can lock off the halyard and then release it from the winch, thus allowing me to use the winch for the jib sheet, too. Otherwise, I am cleating off the jib halyard aft of the winch, thus effectively dedicating the winch to the halyard, right?

Sorry, the answers to these questions will probably be self evident on Friday when I give her my first sail. But, until then, I am trying to make sure I understand how everything works, and the changes I want to make so she'll be even more family friendly in the spring.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2011 : 22:11:03

The genoa sheet on a C-25 wants to go to the coaming... the halyards could maybe be winched from there, but that's a pretty strange lead angle to the winch. Most folks who want to winch their halyards from the cockpit add winches to the cabintop, aft of the clutches. I never winched my main halyard on our C-25--I just yanked on it with the clutch set for one-way hold. So I didn't have winches set up with my clutches. (I used the mast winch for the roller-furled jib halyard--once a season, with no clutch.)

EDIT: If you have slugs on the mainsail (and not a bolt rope luff), you should be able to raise it adequately without a winch. I kept my lugs lubricated with teflon lube, and the sail went up and down pretty easily. One last tug and it was well tensioned.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/04/2011 22:15:15

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 03:58:51

My Cat 25 has the winch on the cabin top with the halyard internal to the mast goes thru turning blocks leading to that winch. A cleat then is used to secure the halyard(s) since the jib halyard is also set up same way. In absence of a cabin top winch...well it may be best to do just as Dave suggests and yank on the halyard and cleat it or use a clutch.

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 05:45:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I think somebody here (Don Lucier?) has installed jam cleats (one horn forms a V) in place of the standard horns, so he can do a single wrap around the base of the cleat rather than having to do a "cleat hitch". If I did that, I'd put the "jam" side forward so the first turn doesn't get "jammed" too hard. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Dave,

I use the jam cleats (a V under one horn) for my sheet cleats for the jib and spinnaker. You are quite right with your advice to put the V forward. We just wrap the sheet twice around the base of the cleat and give a little tug to seat the lines (no cleat hitches!). First wrap gets the line into the V, and the 2nd wrap keeps it there. They are fast and easy to use, and easier to get "un"-cleated than "cam" cleats IMHO for lines coming from a winch.

I also share your distrust about "Clam" cleats.....

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 06:23:21

I'd suggest learning your boat for the first year, or two, before making any changes. When I first got my boat I wanted to do a slew of things that I thought would benefit me somehow, but in practice, I didn't need to do but a third, or less, of what thought I needed.

Since you mentioned singlehanding, which is primarily what I do, apart from the furler, adding an autopilot greatly enhanced my ability to handle my boat by myself and directly led to me venturing out much more often and in conditions some might consider iffy. With the autopilot, I no longer had a reason to route my main halyard to the cabintop since I can easily raise and lower the main at the mast. Nearly every time when returning to the marina, under autopilot, I lower, flake, secure, then cover the main while still sailing on the headsail.

"However, unlike the 14's, which had cam cleats attached to the jib sheets, the jib sheets on the C25 tie off to cleats. I suspect that will make single-handing much more difficult..." 

As to securing you jib sheets, I still use the stock horn cleats (no jam cleats, Dave), but I don't use them in the conventional sense with figure eights and half hitches. Instead I simply put a few round turns on the cleat then cinch the last wrap as shown in the picture below. That last cinch jams the sheet between the lead coming off the winch and the line above it. It ain't movin', but is easily unwound.

In the ten years I've used this technique, I've never had the line inadvertently release on me and I sail in weather that more prudent sailors would take a pass on.

As to the jib furling line, you are correct, it does not have any tension on it when the headsail is fully furled, but there can be quite a bit when in a blow with a partially unfurled headsail. I use a Johnson rail mounted cleat to secure the furling line which also allows for line stowage. Although I should move my setup to run the line on the outboard side of the stanchions to free up the side deck a little more, it is fairly out of the way none the less. The anodized aluminum and stainless rail mount cleat was around twenty bucks.

Edited by - dlucier on 10/05/2011 06:29:54

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 07:02:06

I have jamb cleats on my C&C 35, and they work great for single handed cruising, which is my usual use for the boat.

I used my C25 primarily for racing, and used clam cleats for the jib sheets, for a number of reasons. When racing, I am constantly re-trimming my sheets for every puff and lull, because, in a puff, dacron sailcloth and Sta Set sheets stretch, and that changes their shape from what is ideal for the windspeed to a shape that is too full and too powerful. Thus, you add tension in a puff. When the puff fades, you must ease the sheets to maintain the proper shape. As a consequence, you need cleats that will hold the sheet securely, but that will also release the sheet easily, when necessary. Clam cleats worked well for me. To release them, no matter how heavily they were loaded, all I had to do was lift the line out of the cleat. To put the line in a clam cleat, all I had to do was lay the line in the opening, and it grabbed it. With a cam cleat, if it was too heavily loaded, I found that it was often hard to remove from the cleat, and likewise hard to put back in the cleat. With jamb cleats, which I like very much for cruising, they require two wraps around for good holding. Wrapping and unwrapping the sheet twice seems a needless waste of time and motion when racing, and when you are constantly trimming and re-trimming the sails, as is my habit. The biggest drawback to clam cleats is that it isn't difficult to bump the line enough to pop it out of a clam cleat accidentally, but it's like anything...after you get accustomed to them, you learn to not bump them, and the problem goes away.

So, to me, the key question is how do you intend to use the boat? Cruising or racing? The answer to that question will probably influence your choice of cleats.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 07:09:21

Don,
Thanks for the info and the pics! I agree with the idea of holding off on doing most of the changes I foresee, and am trying to limit my out-of-pocket expenses as much as practical. However, given that I'll be sailing with my kids (is there something "less" than single-handing?), I'd like the more important lines accessible from the cockpit. I'm OK with the main halyard being up on the mast for now, although I could see adding a downhaul and bringing both the halyard and downhaul back to the cockpit at that point. The cost to do that shouldn't be TOO bad.

I think adding more jib sheet control is the single biggest change (to the running rigging) for me. The info on your technique with the jib sheet is very interesting. In looking at your technique, what I don't understand is how you can cleat off with the cleat ahead of the winch, and why you'd want to have a more "permanent" cleat. Now maybe part of my problem is that I've only lake sailed on a small lake with very shifty winds, and I'm usually practicing sailing to a particular point, not just out letting the boat run. With that in mind, on the 14's we frequently tweak the jib's shape, so having the jib sheet firmly cleated off just doesn't make sense to me; I'm used to wanting to pop it free to let it out a little or dial it in some. But, if I'm on a long run, I can see where cleating it off could make sense (until you go to tack). So, to my original question, if the sheet is under tension (since you're using the winch, I will assume the jib is putting some strong pressure on the sheet), how do you pull the sheet in enough to wrap the sheet around the cleat?

The only other change I know I want to make is to add a solar powered fan to cut down on the humidity inside the cabin when I'm not around. The fan will be between $75 and $150, depending on the make and model, and whether I get one or two. That's not too bad, and I think I can easily justify that expense. The cam cleats aren't real expensive, either, as far as I know. I've seen them in the $35-40 range per cleat, and that seems reasonable (I'll also see if I can find them at the boat show this weekend, or from another source at a lower cost). So, I'm looking at about $200-$300 in changes this winter (guess what I'm asking for for Christmas!), and then the boat should be more comfortable, both when under way and when at the dock. The rest of the stuff I hope to do is just your typical maintenance - refinish the tiller and trim, clean her up (including the sails), etc. I'll check the through-hulls to see if they need work, but otherwise I (hope) not to be spending too much more on her.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 07:15:34

Steve, thanks for the reply. I doubt that I'll be doing much racing; we'll be filling her with lots of creature comforts so the days on the water are enjoyable for family and friends, rather than lightening her up so she'll go 1/8k faster. I've had some experience with clam cleats, and they make me a little nervous about just how easy it is to get them free. I don't disagree with your comment about it occasionally being difficult to uncleat a cam sometimes, but I've gotten used to them. I guess it's a trade-off between possibly bumping the line free when you don't want it to be, and possibly having the line stuck for a second when you want it free. To me, that comes down to personal preference in most cases - do you agree, or am I missing something?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 07:54:23

Jim, do you have experience using winches? If not, I think when you start using them, some comments here will make more sense. The winch takes most of the load from the sail, and only turns one way (for trimming in). It's grip on the sheet is dependent on the number of turns on the winch--you see four on Don's picture, which gives a lot of grip. (His cleat is aft of the winch.) To ease a sheet, you uncleat it and possibly reduce the number of wraps on the winch--sometimes down to one, so the sheet will slip--then re-wrap and cleat. Racing, Steve probably keeps a minimal number of wraps on the winch, depending on conditions, so he can get some slip by easing the sheet without having to unwrap. If he needs to crank with the handle, he might add a couple of wraps. You get the feel by doing it.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 08:10:21

Dave,
My lack of experience with winches shows, huh? :) And I now see what I was misinterpreting in Don's first picture. That picture is of the port side, with the bow to the left in the picture. I was thinking this was the starboard side, bow to the left. I was wondering why the cleat would be FORWARD of the winch. That just didn't make any sense to me. And I was right, it doesn't make any sense - his cleat is aft of the winch. The second picture shows this in better detail, but I didn't realize it when I posted my question.

Edited by - JimGo on 10/05/2011 08:12:19

GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 08:41:59

Since you may have put off buying a trailer you could use the money you saved toward purchasing a couple of coaming mounted self-tailing winches for your jib sheets and not have to use any cleats -->> http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=944

You can find them cheaper if you shop the internet.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/05/2011 08:42:56

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 08:45:06

That's a neat idea, Gary, and I appreciate you bringing them to my attention. But I think my wife would notice the cost of two of those MUCH more than the cost of some cam cleats! LOL

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:03:38

Now, something like [url="http://www.marine.com/barton-marine-winchers-self-tailing-converters-small-sold-priced-pair-p-40569.html"] the Barton "winchers"[/url] could be interesting, but I am not as certain of their effectiveness.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:04:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 Now maybe part of my problem is that I've only lake sailed on a small lake with very shifty winds, and I'm usually practicing sailing to a particular point, not just out letting the boat run. With that in mind, on the 14's we frequently tweak the jib's shape, so having the jib sheet firmly cleated off just doesn't make sense to me; I'm used to wanting to pop it free to let it out a little or dial it in some.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim,

As you've mentioned, for the most part you are either sailing to a particular waypoint or to an apparent wind angle. When I'm sailing to a specific apparent wind angle, I set my sheets then steer via the telltales/windvane changing course as wind shifts to maintain the same apparent wind angle. When going to a waypoint, or racing another boat

, my course remains steady and I play the sheets during wind shifts to maintain optimum sail trim. If the winds are particularly shifty, I may not cleat the jib sheet at all, but rather just hold the tail then play it out or winch it in when necessary to maintain trim. With the proper amount of wraps on the winch, a five year old can hold the tail.

Edited by - dlucier on 10/05/2011 09:07:30

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:17:49

Don, I'm taking the boat out on Friday to move her to the new marina. I'll have to give your technique a try, now that you've moved the horn cleat to the more logical position.

By the way, where in the BVI's are you? My first sailing lessons were at the Bitter End Yacht Club on Virgin Gorda ages ago, and that's also where my wife and I honeymooned (though we didn't take our lessons there, and she (wisely) didn't trust me to sail there).

Edited by - JimGo on 10/05/2011 09:19:37

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:26:06

Dave, you made one other point earlier that I forgot to address - I didn't understand why the PO was using the winch for the main halyard, either. I assumed it was just because the main was heavy, but it didn't seem necessary. I just did as he instructed (since it was still his boat, technically).

OK, so if I can make Don's technique work, then I may not need to add cam cleats OR the winchers to the cockpit. I may still want one for the jib furling line, though Don's wrapping technique may work for that, too.

Well, you guys may have just saved me $100-200; thanks!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:39:27

I've considered self-tailing winches, but I see problems with them related to my personal sailing technique when singlehanding. When preparing to tack, I first take the lazy sheet and put two wraps on the winch then transfer the winch handle (the one without the lock) to the lazy winch. Then with the jib sheet uncleated and me holding the tail (there may still be four wraps on the drum) I tack while seated on the windward (high) side. As the boat moves through the wind, from the opposite side of the cockpit, I quickly flip the wraps off the now non-working winch then haul in the working jib sheet. With a self tailing winch and its feeder arm, I'd envision there might be problems flipping the sheet from the winch at a distance.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:41:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 By the way, where in the BVI's are you?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Umm, I don't live in the BVI's. It just sounds nicer than Metro Detroit!

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 09:44:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
Umm, I don't live in the BVI's. It just sounds nicer than Metro Detroit!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh, I was really hoping to score an invite to sail on your boat for a week. The fact that you're in Detroit is therefore disappointing on many levels.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 10:42:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
Umm, I don't live in the BVI's. It just sounds nicer than Metro Detroit!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh, I was really hoping to score an invite to sail on your boat for a week. The fact that you're in Detroit is therefore disappointing on many levels.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, but sailing on a freshwater Great Lake with a local offshore breeze that turns on like clockwork and with nearly 10,000 square miles, I sometimes sail eight hours with only having to tack once. Gotta love those 10-15 mile spinnaker runs!

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 10:52:22

That looks like fun! I'm still not sure I want to go to Detroit, though.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 11:56:43

Single handing is a matter of style, taste and conditions. On my '89 I went for style over function and only led two lines back on each side. You should walk the docks and study well equipped boats for ideas. My '82 was set up with four lines led back on each side of the cabin which gave me the option of controlling my own choice of lines from the cockpit. (Note there is no one at the helm, when you single hand you get pretty good at balancing the helm so you can walk around.)

I also set up multiple cleats in the cockpit so one set, (cams), were directed at a crew position and another set, (clams), aimed at a single handing skipper. My '82 cleats were like this:

Edited by - pastmember on 10/05/2011 11:58:42

dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 12:35:15

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4536671289105007193"]Autopilot in Action[/url]

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 13:16:40

I think the almost unanimous message here is, "Don't start making changes until you've handled the boat enough to realize what you really need or want. She's been sailed as-is for 20+ years--give her a few more months with yourself at the helm, and then start setting her up for your tastes."

Regarding Winchers and self-tailers... I tried Winchers and they didn't work with my sheets. Self-tailers are nice (and $$$) for cruisers--racers generally find they get in the way.

However, be aware that "tailing" is an important function, and something of an art. You always want at least a couple of wraps on the windward winch... Whether you're just pulling the sheet (with a few wraps) or cranking the winch, you need to keep the "tail" of the sheet coming off the drum at an upward angle, but not too much of an angle, to prevent the dreaded "override" (a lower coil wraps over an upper one and jams the winch). When that happens to you, and it will, generally you'll need to turn up to luff the genoa to slacken the sheet so you can undo the mess. (Harden the main to the max so you can maintain some way while the genny is luffing.)

Self-tailers hold the tail up for you as you crank the winch, but generally require at least 3-4 wraps to do it. I like them on bigger boats that take more cranking, but didn't feel much need on our C-25, where 80-100% of the sheeting was just pulling the tail, with a few cranks at end when we really wanted it flat. We were double-handing more than single...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/05/2011 13:20:19

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.