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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

winged keel aground

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Johnnybob
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/06/2011 : 07:56:11

I haven't become a Catalina owner yet but I think I will in the next few days. I have really enjoyed the great information and lively comments I've read on this forum. I have decided to purchase a 250 TR WK. There is a specific boat in my area I have decided on. However I've read some things on this forum that have given me pause.
First is the difficulty to become unstuck after running aground I live in Beaufort SC where 7' tides are common and 9' tides occasionally. I have boated all of my 60 years and always have had a few power boats in my yard at all times so I am familiar with the area and the basics of boating. I realize the best policy is to not run aground. But as the wise old fella says, stuff happens. What I'm trying to picture is a 25' winged keel high and dry. Will the boat stand on it's "foot" in the sand until the wind blows it over? It it lays over on it's side on a fairly flat bottom will it re-float on the tide or fill up with water.
My second concern is I've read about the rudder being deeper than the keel. We have mostly a hard sandy bottom around here and some very muddy bottom in places. I have also read that there is a rudder available that is some what shorter. Do you sacrifice control with this rudder. I read in this forum one way to get off of a grounding is to use the outboard and pivot the boat around in a circle to wallow a hole. Is this possible without rudder damage?
I also read (probably read to much) that the winged keels do not point as well as the fin keeled boats what kind of loss do you expect 5 degrees 10 degrees?
Last concern is the tall rig, I've read several entrys in this forum about people cutting down there masts and refitting what has been describe as a design flaw. The boat I'm looking at has a double reefing setup? Which I understand is the same as a single reef on a regular rig. Should I be concerned with this. It seems to me that he extra sail will be great in light air and when the wind blows take in some sail. How difficult (expensive) would it be to add a third reef point.
I've come to sailing late in life Two years ago I bought a Flying Scott and have been become smitten with the blow boat. I look forward to joining the Catalina community and hearing your sage advice on this forum.
Thank you

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 09:14:01

While the Tall Rig C250 was never called a design flaw (at least by Catalina), they stopped making them after a very short production run. One of the issues is that tall rigs are meant to improve performance in light wind conditions. The C250 is more tender than the C25. That is, my boat sails better and is more comfortable (IMHO) with a reef in the mainsail and a shortened headsail in only 10 knot winds. I'd imagine the tall rig would need reefing much, much sooner. That begs the question of why have all that extra sail area? When it comes time to buy new sails, why spend the extra money for sail area that isn't helpful? Don't forget that the rigging, etc., will also be more expensive simply for a feature that is not seen as a positive one. Given the age of the boat, these things will soon (if not already) require replacement. The cost of re-fitting the boat as a standard rig could negate the good price you might get it for. I think the tall rig C250 would be a great boat for a small inland lake with very light winds but, not the right boat for the ocean.

The C250 has a lot more freeboard than the C25. This also contributes to its "tenderness". Don't take "tenderness" as being a complaint. It's just a characteristic that needs to be taken into account.

As far as grounding is concerned, there are 3 kinds of sailors: Those that have been aground, those that will be aground some day and those that lie about it. As far as it standing upright on its keel, I think that has more to do with the circumstances of the grounding, the wind and wave action and the bottom surface. Although, when I take newbies out on mine, I sail in rather shallow water (8' -12'). I tell them that if we should sink, we could stand on the deck until the coasties come and only get wet to our knees.

The C250 isn't a race boat. I know, some people race them successfully but, that's not what it was designed to do. With that in mind, pointing is less of an issue. My wing keel can get to around 30 degrees (I've never really measured)off the wind if I'm working hard. I think that's pretty good. Except, of course, when I'm sailing, I don't like to work real hard!

Good luck with your new toy.

Edited by - on

mikesuej
Navigator

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USA
119 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 10:08:01

I have a 1997 Tall Rig C250 WK in a small inland lake in Kentucky. As a relatively inexperienced sailor, I, too, thought about "cutting down" the tall rig, which is actually really easy to do, but decided against it. I've never had any trouble sailing it with all the sail. However, I did decide to run all lines aft, including the two deep reef lines. I also don't find the boat "tender." It has some initial "tenderness" but soon after the boat starts moving the wing keel bites in and offers a rather stable platform for a 25 foot boat. If you winds are typically above 10 knots, I would agree that a standard rig might be better choice at your experience level. However, if your winds are typically less than 10 knots (as is the case here), a tall rig serves a VERY helpful extra bit of sail for inland lake sailing. If you're like me, a weekend pleasure sailor, and once the wind tops 15 knots,I stay home anyway,the tall rig is not really an issue.

So between 0-15, I would suggest that a furled 110 jib and a double-reefed main on a tall rig would give you a bit more flexibility than a standard rig. Plus, when you look at the sail area differences, it's not THAT significant. I definitely wouldn't make the tall rig a make or break issue. You can always cut it down and for a few hundred bucks, re-rig it as a standard rig when the time comes and if you own a boat, a few hundred bucks really goes by in a flash anyway ; )

MJ

Edited by - mikesuej on 09/06/2011 10:10:12

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 12:33:57

I agree with Michael. Mostly. I think he's a many hundreds of dollars off in the cost of re-fitting the boat should you want to cut the mast shorter. A new mainsail will cost nearly a grand. Standing rigging a few hundred. The furler will AT LEAST need to be shortened and the headsail modified or replaced. Assuming you do all the work yourself, you'll still spend at least a thousand dollars, just as likely it'll be north of $2000.

When I spoke of "tenderness" I only meant in relationship to the C25. The C250 is a seaworthy craft when used for the purpose for which it was intended. I'm sure that is true for the tall rig as well. I love mine and sail it on big water and relatively big wind in comfort. If the conditions are such that I need a double reef, I'm going to be comfortably in my living room at home.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 14:07:27

On the subject of "relative to the C-25", the discussions I've seen here on wing keels and pointing have mostly been about the C-25, which has a substantially shallower wing keel than the C-250. The C-25 wing was designed to replace the swing keel in later model years, for trailering. Catalina apparently designed the C-250 wing for those who weren't as concerned about trailering and ramp launching--that's what the water ballast model is for. So windward performance of the C-250 wing is probably less compromised than that of the C-25 wing, which is acknowledged compared to the C-25 swing and fin versions. I don't recall any conclusions that either the WB or WK C-250 had a pointing advantage over the other. We do know of exactly one C-250 fin keel (maybe the only one built) that probably out-points all other C-250s... and it might also be a tall rig.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/06/2011 14:11:31

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 15:15:40

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Catalina change the C250's wing keel design sometime around 2000? I think the earlier ones draw about 6" more than the later ones. I've often wondered if that makes any noticeable difference in the tenderness or pointing.

Edited by - on

mikesuej
Navigator

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USA
119 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2011 : 15:53:45

john...you are correct. I wasmt trying to misinform. I am nearinf needing new sails and i thought Jonnybob was looking at a boat that might be coming up on new sails too. With that being the case, you would just need new standing rigging, and the cost saved in smaller sails would offset some of that. But yes, if you are not in dire need of new sails, it would be more like 2 grand.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 06:20:04

I don't think I can remember all your questions, but here is my best shot.
First, getting unstuck in a wing. Because the rudder is deeper than the keel it is necessary to remove the rudder in order to spin and drive out. With the C25 this was a major problem since the rudder was very heavy. The C250, on the other hand has a composite rudder and is very light in comparison. Wheel steering posses a additional problem, but not insurmountable. This method of un-grounding a wing does work. Been there done that a few times.
Second, standing on the wing. The boat will stand on up on the wing. That is the way I use to clean the bottom of my boat before I had a lift available. I did however tie the boat off on both sides just in case a strong wind came along since I was under it.
Third, rudder size. I would stay with the longer rudder for better control. It will also tell you you are about to ground because to starts to vibrate as it scrapes the ground shortly before the keel hits.
Last, the tall rig. Being over powered is a little exciting and makes the heart speed up a bit, but the 250 will bring itself up into the wind at around 33 degrees of heel with the longer rudder. This basically means let her come up, shorten the sail and go again. If she comes up again, shorten again. If she comes up again you should be inside not sailing.

Edited by - frog0911 on 09/08/2011 16:18:52

Johnnybob
1st Mate

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32 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 09:58:17

Thank you everybody for the great and timely advice. It is reassuring to have such a wealth of information and experience to call on. I'm sure I'll be back soon with more dumb questions. I plan to pick up the boat Friday. I've been shopping for a while and looked at a lot of boats it's been fun. I really like the 250 and I look forward to getting her wet this weekend.
Thanks again
John

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 12:50:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Johnnybob
 Thank you everybody for the great and timely advice. It is reassuring to have such a wealth of information and experience to call on. I'm sure I'll be back soon with more dumb questions. I plan to pick up the boat Friday. I've been shopping for a while and looked at a lot of boats it's been fun. I really like the 250 and I look forward to getting her wet this weekend.
Thanks again
John
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not sure about the tall rig 250, but I will tell you that when the wind gets north of about 18 knots I just sail head sail alone and get up to hull speed without a problem with my 135 roller furled head sail.

I had two sets of reef points and never used them.

I just bought a new tall rig main sail for $600. I did get a good deal though.

I haven't run aground with the C-25 yet, but last weekend we ran the C-27 aground, was able to get her unstuck by rocking the boat and motor in reverse.

Good luck with your new boat!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 15:38:02

EDITED:

If groundings are expected (and they'll happen whether they are or not), one option is a [url="http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=584"]kick-up rudder from Rudder Craft[/url] (what used to be IDA Sailor). If the rudder grounds before the keel, a gas strut lets the blade pop up, and apparently a small line lets you pull it back down. Not cheap, but an option to consider...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/07/2011 15:43:47

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 15:41:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 ... Now, I presume that if that happens, you'll need to replace the pin before your resume sailing--a kick-up rudder should be completely down when sailing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I don't know how involved that is--whether you have to remove the rudder to get to the pin. Just an option to consider...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nope.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2011 : 15:44:50

(I edited that rudder posting--found that they have a new product.)

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:49:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Catalina change the C250's wing keel design sometime around 2000? I think the earlier ones draw about 6" more than the later ones. I've often wondered if that makes any noticeable difference in the tenderness or pointing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

yes, the change to a shallower draft was in 2001.

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:50:02

I have run aground a few times but were on a relatively sandy, muddy bottom in my area of the bay. I usually just motor off. Once I had to be pulled off an unmarked sand bar by another boat and the narrow blade of the keel managed to cut through the sand without much problem. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the gear is pretty solid to me. Did need to replace my steering cable (which was badly corroded) last winter though

As far as the other issues concerned I sailed mine in 25kts of wind from E Greenwich to Bristol RI with a full main and 40% of my genny (mostly on a beat) this past Friday. I certainly rounded up a few times and progress was slow through the 3'-4' seas, but I did manage to get pretty close to my goal at close to 3kts an hour. Since the typical adage is that you don't want to be in wind speeds which exceed your hull length, I'd have to say that 250 TR WK does okay. Sure an 80's C and C's going to point higher and charge faster with more security, but the 250 can do allot, as long as you pay attention.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2011 : 17:08:02

I sailed my 1999 250 WK standard rig in Charleston harbor several different weeks in May. I darn sure didn't want a taller rig as there was plenty of wind every time. Frankly I would not want a tall rig 250 in any coastal location and not even on my home lake 100 miles inland. It tends to be overpowered with just a standard rig and 135% genoa.

If you get a good chart plotter (a.k.a. moving map GPS) like the Garmin 376C (found mine on eBay) with an appropriate map card your only excuse for running aground is that depths have changed since the map was digitized. If you make good use of the following website to see the most recent data even that problem can be minimized.

http://www.charts.noaa.gov/InteractiveCatalog/nrnc.shtml

As for standing on the wing when the water goes down, I would make a concerted effort to make my boat lean on the shallower side unless I could secure it to stay vertical with strong lines to pilings. What happens if the boat eventually falls over ? The shock could break or bend something. Since the wing is only about 2 feet wide it should be easy to lean the boat as the water recedes. The boat should float right back up when the water returns. Just in case conditions might worsen make some radio contacts while the antenna is still up high, close all hull openings, and seal hatches with duct tape.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2011 : 18:05:30

I think I would lay it down with the cockpit facing downwind to keep any waves out of the cockpit as the water comes back up.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2011 : 07:02:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 I think I would lay it down with the cockpit facing downwind to keep any waves out of the cockpit as the water comes back up.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">However, the C-250 wing is deeper, so the boat will lie further over. So then the question is does she float back up before water comes over the coamings or floods the outboard or whatever...

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2011 : 14:59:10

Buy and install a fishfinder for a depth gauge and tack when you reach 6-7 ft. (set it yo go off at 8 ft.)
then you shouldn't have a problem running aground.

Edited by - on

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