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A Tragedy

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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/20/2011 : 06:00:02

Recently on Chesapeake Bay a group of people decided to go for a "Mid-night" sail after a party. 9 people on a 22 ft sailboat. It looked like a Catalina 22. Hard to tell since it was mostly under water. They capsized and the boat was later run over by a barge. 9 went out and 7 returned. 2 people died because of a stupid idea.

Never go for a sail after a party.

NCBrew

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 06:02:33

Never get on an overloaded boat!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 07:00:08

I got curious about that story--couldn't find anything... Roughly when and where did it happen?

Indeed, alcohol sinks boats, and the water wants to kill you. Two things to remember at "parties".

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 07:44:47

This one I think:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110513/ap_on_re_us/us_va_capsized_boat?bouchon=511,dc

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 08:05:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...one of the unanswered questions is whether the boat was large enough to safely have 10 people on board.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or how about 10 drunks...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/20/2011 08:06:05

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 08:22:19

A 22 ft sailboat should not have had more than 6 on board; and late at night they should have been wearing life preservers, no question about it. Water temp 57 degrees. Ten people, avg 150 lbs conservative = 1500 lbs of movable ballast on a 2,200-2,400 lb boat is too much.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 08:25:45

Yep, several years ago there was a group out after dark near the Bass Islands. They unknownly steered into the path of a tug towing a barge - and didn't realize what was happening until it was too late. Fearing their boat would be run over, some jumped off while others stayed aboard. The ones who jumped drown, the others survived.

Too bad these accidents usually only make local news. If boaters read a national compilation they might use more caution or smarts.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 09:58:15

NORFOLK, Va. – A sailboat carrying 10 people affiliated with NASA's Langley Research Center...

"These are young people who are very talented who are recommended from around the country," Lindberg said.

You'd think they would have known better but alas, young, dumb, and ....

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 10:13:02

Not necessarily Gary - if someone invited me to go flying in their ultralight, I would have no idea what safe capacity was, or if they were encouraging me to do somethign dangerous. Same with a lot of things. Just because this was a group of bright engineers doesn't mean they knew squat about sailing. I suspect they trusted the guy who took them out, their trust may have been misplaced.

Having said that, they should have known enough to put on a PFD.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 10:50:48

Five broke off and swam to shore, they all lived. I've always been told to stay with the boat.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 11:08:40

Alcohol - Turning even rocket scientists into idiots since ~900a.d.

We always thought 6 of us were way too many on my father's Santana 21.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 05/20/2011 11:10:59

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 18:46:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Alcohol - Turning even rocket scientists into idiots since ~900a.d.

We always thought 6 of us were way too many on my father's Santana 21.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is what I was referring to in my post above. Doesn't matter how smart you are if you start drinking (No I'm not a T-totaler).

I never did get Miller Lite's slogan of "drink smart". Once you drink the smart part goes away pretty quickly.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 07:59:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 This one I think:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110513/ap_on_re_us/us_va_capsized_boat?bouchon=511,dc

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is the accident I was referring to.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 08:20:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 If boaters read a national compilation they might use more caution or smarts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

With all due respect, I've found that is simply not the case. Stupid is as stupid does... In all the years I've been boating, we have seen increased awareness of safety issues, from government and private (i.e., BoatUS, etc.) sources.

But ya just can't make 'em read the stuff.

Those of you who regularly participate in this Forum, and others, have seen it all and are more aware than most, especially about "features" of maintenance of and for your boats, all of which I personally consider to be "safety" items.

For instance, on our C34 Forum we've posted a "Critical Upgrades - Do These or Else" topic, which highlights, among other things, a FIRE hazard in the wiring harness that has "been around" for at least the last twenty years!!! http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html

But, we're STILL finding skippers who haven't done that upgrade!

Why? 'Cuz out of 1,800 C34s that were made, we have "only" 700 C34IA members, and maybe 200 "regulars" on the Forum who read the stuff.
So my conclusion is that most folks either don't know or don't care that the "information is out there," and either choose to ignore it, or simply can't be bothered. Is it because of lack of internet experience or lack of care? Who knows?

All we can say is that "basic common sense" is an oxymoron, 'cuz common sense just isn't that prevalent.

What a shame.

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 14:30:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 [quote]
<snip>
Why? 'Cuz out of 1,800 C34s that were made, we have "only" 700 C34IA members, and maybe 200 "regulars" on the Forum who read the stuff.
So my conclusion is that most folks either don't know or don't care that the "information is out there," and either choose to ignore it, or simply can't be bothered. Is it because of lack of internet experience or lack of care? Who knows?
<snip>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How about lack of funds????

I think it is a truism that a lot of people just don't think about the ongoing maintenance costs or plan for them when they purchase a boat. The result is they may not be able to afford to properly maintain them especially if one is unable to do the maintenance themselves. When a problem comes along that doesn't seem have an immediate impact on their ability to use the boat, represents a perceived "low" safety risk for how they use their boat, and is otherwise perceived as difficult or expensive to correct, it gets added to the "deferred" maintenance list.

I know that when I was looking at buying a boat, the very second thing that came to mind after "how much is this going to cost to buy" was "and how much is this going to cost to operate and maintain?". A lot of people never get past the first question (for any number of reasons), and the general sailing trade press which for many people is their only source of information, doesn't do a lot to encourage (or ever really address) the second question. Even the manufacturers, and a lot of brokers, are not entirely open about the second question. There is actually a disincentive to do so.

Anyway, returning directly to topic

I agree with Stu... you can lead a horse to water....

Edited by - mhartong on 05/21/2011 14:31:12

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 16:45:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">All we can say is that "basic common sense" is an oxymoron, 'cuz common sense just isn't that prevalent.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This opens up one of my pet peeve's, Boating licenses. In NY we don't have them, But I imagine that sooner or later some politician will push through the bill to require us to have them. I am not totally against this for new, And I repeat NEW boaters to take some sort of course to at least familiarize them selves with the basic rules on the water but I don't and never will think that an 8HR course is going to make some people a responsible boater. Just look at the drivers in cars who pull off some of the dumbest things you can think of and they have licenses. No, Licenses will never change someones personality or stupidity. Accidents like this just give the politician more fuel for a bill that they know one can protest about but the rest of the responsible boaters have to pay for.

Edited by - islander on 05/21/2011 17:17:46

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2011 : 12:34:50

Connecticut has a required Safe Boating Certificate that I heartily support--even though we still have stupid boaters. At a minimum, it introduces new boaters to the existence of a set of "rules of the road", the meaning of navigation aids, and the safety requirements that are enforced by the USCG and local authorities. Things have improved here--at least somewhat--since that program began.

As for information on forums and from organizations like this, I've met C-25 owners to whom it apparently never occurred there might be such a thing, and who had little interest when I mentioned it--like I would probably react if somebody told me there was an owners association and web forum for my Highlander. "Uh-huh." And how many people do I know who've never opened the owner's manual for their car... (present GF included.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/22/2011 12:37:48

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2011 : 13:34:27

Definitely with Dave on this one. I am grandfathered in, but I still took an approved course to be sure I am current and mostly to see what it covered. I do think that the feds should write a standards guideline for states to meet. I don't believe in a lot of government, but but I do believe that some things should be essentially the same across the country.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 13:31:15

Funny, you need a license to fly a plane, drive, or get married. But anyone with a checkbook can come out here and ruin my day and possibly kill someone. Yet so many boaters, I will not call them captains, cry foul if you think there should be some form of mandatory licensing. Boat US too, which seems counter productive. Crazy.

Sten

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 15:38:29

Sten, I agree, its nuts. I even am required to have a dog license! I think the feeling is if you fly, drive a car, own a handgun etc, you will hurt or kill someone else or damage anothers property with a higher probability than sailing. So its a financial rationale in my estimation. Or some other reason, I dont know or understand it.
I would think most in our group would agree with licensing but maybe I am wrong there too!
Lets take an informal vote, how say you all? Should boaters be required to have a license?
Steve A

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 16:19:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Sten, I agree, its nuts. I even am required to have a dog license! I think the feeling is if you fly, drive a car, own a handgun etc, you will hurt or kill someone else or damage anothers property with a higher probability than sailing. So its a financial rationale in my estimation. Or some other reason, I dont know or understand it.
I would think most in our group would agree with licensing but maybe I am wrong there too!
Lets take an informal vote, how say you all? Should boaters be required to have a license?
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am gonna vote for mandatory education. Funny, I had to pass a test to drive a motorcycle.

Sten

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 16:40:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 I even am required to have a dog license!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you haved to wear it around your neck or can you keep it in your wallet?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2011 : 18:07:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Sten, I agree, its nuts. I even am required to have a dog license! I think the feeling is if you fly, drive a car, own a handgun etc, you will hurt or kill someone else or damage anothers property with a higher probability than sailing. So its a financial rationale in my estimation. Or some other reason, I dont know or understand it.
I would think most in our group would agree with licensing but maybe I am wrong there too!
Lets take an informal vote, how say you all? Should boaters be required to have a license?
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am gonna vote for mandatory education. Funny, I had to pass a test to drive a motorcycle.

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have boater licenses here. It is little more than a tax grab. you can take the test online and get the license in teh mail. You can retake the test until you get apassing grade.

Its dumb. Google PCOC (pleasure craft operators card) and see for yourself. Try not to laugh.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2011 : 04:01:47

IIRC what you do have, however, (ON or QU?) is strict alcohol laws for boaters to hopefully reduce the number of tragic incidents.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2011 : 05:04:22

IIRC, here in TN the whole thing about boater safety courses and licensing didn't have much interest until PWC's came on the scene. Now, if you were born in 1989 or later, you have to have it. No requirement yet for older boaters, but it is encouraged. I'm taking an online boater safety course now to get the certificate in case I go to a state that requires it, about half way through.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2011 : 05:17:22

Yeah Gerry our Drunk driving laws include boats. Or is it the drunk boating laws match those for cars. in either case, they are pretty robust. I find it of great interest that our local police have never investigated a sailbot though. Not to the knowledge of anyonein our marina. They have steamed alongside us for more than an hour on a sail between destinations, matching our speed and watching through binocs, but I have never been stopped for a safety check the way they do the fishing boats, ski boats and powercruisers.

A couple weeks ago they sat outside our breakwall and stopped every boat that went by inbound or outbound. It looked like they were doing a brisk business. Many coolers were removed.

Edited by - on

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