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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Rudder Seam Split & Skin Delamination

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Rick6027
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/08/2011 : 17:55:09

I know there have been many posts on the rudder seam split, and mostly, the answer seems to be epoxy it, and glass it, and get a new one if it breaks, but I am hoping for some specifics. The fiberglass "skin" seems to have de-lammed from the foam core between the upper pintle and where the auto wheel pilot bracket through bolts to the rudder. I assume I need to get epoxy to flow under the skin to the affected area, and bond it back together, but I have not dealt with epoxy resin before. Is it thin enough to pour in from the seam, or would it be better to drill a hole, or slot in the skin nearer to the bad area? I am guessing the through bolting of the pintle and the auto pilot bracket might have let water in, causing the delam. Would it be wise to over drill the mounting holes, fill them with epoxy, and redrill so they are sealed? After repairs are done, I plan to epoxy and glass the seam. It is only open in some areas above the water line. Everything below the water line is fine. I am including a couple pictures to help clarify the problem.

Thanks,
Rick

Rick E. 1991 C-25 WK/SR #6027
Oceanside, CA

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 21:34:50

Water inevitably gets into the rudder, and toward the end of the season, the water freezes. Best bet, take the boat out of the water before the 1st freeze takes place and remove the rudder and store it in a safe, warm place when you put the boat on the hard. I usually remove my rudder and engine at the same time and take them home, as well as add antifreeze to the water tank. I think aside from a stray can of soda, that's all the "freeze-able" stuff on Passage.
Repair - most epoxy is highly viscous, but very runny (over several hours). If you use slow cure epoxy, you can allow it to flow down inside the rudder before it cures. Once it's thoroughly coating the inside of the rudder, clamp to portions together using clamps with soft pads to force the two halves together.
Wipe away any excess, and you can remove uncured epoxy with an acetone-soaked rag. Make sure to allow the acetone-soaked rag ample time outside later to completely dry, otherwise you could have a fire hazard on your hands.

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Rick6027
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 22:04:48

Thanks for the input, Bruce. Oddly, this boat has been slipped in saltwater in Southern California since the late nineties, and in Atlanta before that. Who knows with a used boat, though. The PO could have busted a rudder, and got a used one from an East Coast boat. At any rate, I'll see what I can do with it.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 05:56:46

Same thing happened to mine. I used West Systems G-Flex Epoxy because it is slightly flexible when cured. I opened up the seam as far as it would go and poured it inside. Now here comes the weird part, In order to get the epoxy to run like water I mixed it and then put it in the microwave for 10 seconds. This made it have the water like flow-ability that you will need so it runs all the way inside. When it was done filling I layed the rudder on its side and put some heavy bricks on it until the epoxy cured. Sounds kinda funny but it worked and the rudder is now solid if you tap on it. Its just the shell that is delaminating, There is nothing structurally wrong with the rudder and the foam inside is dense closed cell foam so it won't soak up any water.

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Rick6027
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 12:38:21

Scott,

The G/flex looks like a winner. Did you glass the seam afterward with fiberglass cloth, or just rely on the epoxy?

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 13:27:31

No I didn't glass the seam because the seam really doesn't have anything to do with the delamination. The seam will fill up with the epoxy anyway and you will have to wipe off the excess that will ooze out with acetone. The delamination has something to do with the way they build the rudder, I'm guessing they don't put enough adhesive between the shell and the foam and after so many years of sun,Heat and flexing it separates. The G-Flex is perfect for this as it remains flexible, Not brittle. Rudders flex. Yours is a 1991 so this is the balanced rudder, Same as mine. Looking at your photo, Mine looked exactly like that, Even in the same area. I propped the seam open with some nails, Poured the warmed up G-Flex in, Removed the nails and put some bricks on it. Next day it was solid. Also mix up plenty of the G-Flex. You won't have time to go and mix more before the first batch sets up. Have everything ready to go. Rudder proped up, Seam open etc. because once you mix the epoxy and warm it you don't have a lot of time. You want the epoxy poured in and the bricks on the rudder before the epoxy sets up.

Edited by - islander on 04/09/2011 13:50:50

Rick6027
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 16:32:26

Sounds like a good plan on the G/flex epoxy. I'll let you know how it goes!

Thanks,
Rick

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 10:17:42

Does anyone have the dry weight of a standard rudder with the tiller removed? That would be a good method for determining the water saturation. I have my rudder removed for the season, and wondered if it was wet. I don't see any apparent splits, but did note it seemed very heavy. Perhaps water, perhaps just a stout piece of glass.

1980 circa, non-balanced rudder. Previous upgrades unknown...

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 10:32:57

I have mine at home and can try to weigh it tonight. I don't THINK it's wet, though I can't guarantee it since I've seen a few cracks.

Rick, you never came back to tell us how it went!!!

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 10:45:16

I can weigh mine as well to report. We have some wavering of the rudder while sailing (shudders?) and can be quite a handful at times (too much weather helm) I will look more this season in tuning the rigging, as hauling in the backstay helped, but required almost full adjustment.... and the rudder may be warped, is definitely the non-balanced design.

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 12:23:44

Have you read the other threads about the balanced rudder and the new airfoil shape? It seems to resolve the issues you're seeing with shudder.

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 13:13:05

Thanks JimGo. I haven't read through the entire thread, as some of it seemed like people trying to gather information rather than a troubleshooting thread. Interesting you point out the shuddering issue as a balance issue. We don't hold much high hopes for the shape of our boat, we bought as a fixer-upper and more as a learning tool for the next boat (with headroom for Dar) I will have to go back and read. My first assumption was likely the worst case: water intrusion and/or warping. Has anyone tried to modify their existing into a balanced unit .vs. purchasing a-new? Might be an interesting experiment.

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 14:05:10

I had a similar thought. Given that the "bumps" on the balanced one are on a location that is subject to a lot of force, you'd have to have a pretty strong joint between your bump and the original rudder (perhaps a series of stainless steel or hardwood dowels that go deeply into both?). You'll also be adding weight to the entire rudder assembly, and I'm not sure how that will impact the performance of the boat.

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Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2011 : 14:21:11

Hi, Re Rudder modification to achieve a "balanced Rudder". I have looked at the other thread and it looks at the new rudder with area in front of the pivot (pintles). This helps take some of the load off the tiller when weather helm is present ( usually to much sail power) This also seems to create turbulence all the way down the rudder especially at the top thus it appears not helpful to cavitation if the boat heals to much .
Many designs tilt the rudder back at the top to put the lower part forward of the pivot line . Maybe on the C25 a small spacer on the top pintle 1/4 in will be easy and increase the balance , moving the bottom of the rudder forward 1/2 in ???. Job for next winter ..
No freezing here and my Aust made rudder is over 30 yo mostly in the water all year ,but a bit of balance will help the autopilot..

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 04:23:56

UPDATE: 1980 SR, FK: I believe original un-balanced rudder (linear forward edge.) = 28lbs. I gave it a once over quickly, and things look well enough.

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 06:46:57

I finally remembered to weigh my 1984 SR, SK un-balanced rudder, and mine was about 28.5 lbs.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 07:23:31

A heavy weather-helm is primarily the result of either carrying too much sail area in too much wind, or poor rig tuning. If the C25 rig is tuned well, it will have a light weather helm. Before you start experimenting with jury-rigged modifications in an effort to reduce weather-helm, try the proven, traditional methods. Sail the boat in 10-15 kt winds, and take notice of the amount of tiller pressure. Then readjust the mast stays so that the entire rig tilts very slightly more forward. Sail the boat again, and, if it still has excessive weather-helm, continue adjusting the rig forward until the helm lightens. Upgrading to the balanced rudder will reduce weather-helm, but the better way to do it is to tune the rig correctly.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 08:17:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Upgrading to the balanced rudder will reduce weather-helm, but the better way to do it is to tune the rig correctly.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A balanced rudder will reduce the effort due to weather helm--but the tiller will still be the same number of degrees to weather. A modest number of degrees (let's say <5) is good for speed (better lift from the keel) and safety (let go and the boat stops). But an excessive amount is slow (due to drag) and tiresome. Steve's suggestion is important for the latter. The balanced rudder alone might just result in slow and less tiresome.

Regarding weight, my original rudder was probably the same 28 lbs. or more... The balanced one was light enough that it wanted to float off the gudgeons. I wouldn't worry about adding a little weight to reinforce it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/02/2011 08:21:15

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 10:09:44

thanks all. I was using weight to determine if there was much in the way of water saturation within the rudder. I have to become more familiar with the particular furler. I did notice more balance with the headsail and main up (150 gen) but definitely have som erig tuning to do as well.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 11:07:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Sail the boat in 10-15 kt winds, and take notice of the amount of tiller pressure. Then readjust the mast stays so that the entire rig tilts very slightly more forward. Sail the boat again, and, if it still has excessive weather-helm, continue adjusting the rig forward until the helm lightens. Upgrading to the balanced rudder will reduce weather-helm, but the better way to do it is to tune the rig correctly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Adding to what Dave said, weatherhelm is the boat wanting to turn into the wind resulting in having to counter steer the boat to leeward to maintain course. Some weatherhelm is normal, but if you are steering or holding your tiller at an excessive angle to maintain course, then you have excessive weatherhelm. Helm pressure alone is not entirely indicative of weatherhelm as you could have a poorly designed rudder putting pressure on the helm, yet the rudder angle itself is normal.

Like Dave said, a balanced rudder will reduce effort, but not necessarily reduce weatherhelm (unless the original rudder is woefully inadequate).

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