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time for a new outboard...

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JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/03/2010 : 20:21:23

Hello all, I'm a new C25 owner. Just recently moved up from an Oday 22 a few months ago. She's an 82 SR/WK named "Genevieve". I'm so happy with our move up from the Oday.
I never realized how much more fun and relaxation a bigger, well thought out boat could bring me. I love my boat!
What I don't love is the outboard motor. We've had more problems with this cursed thing than all the boats I've ever owned combined! It's a 9.9HP Johnson Seahorse with electric start. When it runs, it's great, but it never wants to run when I really need it to.
So, I'm looking into finding a new outboard and wondering what exactly I need. Can I get away with a 4 or 5 hp motor? What is the outboard of choice for C25 sailors?
Any thoughts are very much appreciated!

to life!
Josh
"Genevieve" 1980 SR/WK
Lake Hefner, OKC
www.towindward.tumblr.com

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2010 : 20:27:29

Hi Josh -- welcome to the forum -- and the Catalina 25 community.

If you do a search you will find lots of threads regarding outboards. I believe the consensus is that a 9.8 four stroke 25 inch (XL) is the optimal way to go, especially on a large lake or coastal area. Many have had the same frustration with the older Johnson/Evinrude engines (including me). In my case I went with the Tohatsu 9.8/XL four stroke with electric start and alternator and bought it utilizing a discount that members of the C25 Association have. I love the engine, but others have similar fondness for Yamaha and Honda models.

A good place to start is do a search for threads on outboards and enjoy the reading and collective wisdom!

Edited by - on

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2010 : 20:39:07

Thanks for the tip. I was just poking around in the Tech Tips section and got most of my questions answered.
I did however come up puzzled. In the "Shopping for a Cat25" article by Larry Charlot it's noted that the wink keel wasn't introduced until 1986. Our 1982 is certainly a wing keel and it doesn't seem to be a post-factory alteration.
Does anyone else own a pre 86 WK?
I wonder if my boat was perhaps a custom order of some type?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2010 : 20:55:19

Josh, can't answer your question about the keel (somebody will) but I wanted to let you know that if you are a paid member of the association, a discount is available for motors from a reputable online dealer whose name escapes me at the moment. More than pays for the cost of membership.

Welcome to the forum.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2010 : 22:02:23

Josh - I just read through your blog - WOW! a demasting and 2 boats in your first year sailing! Amazing - and all the photography on there is top notch! keep up with it!

I believe there was an option to have a wing retrofit onto a boat by the dealer, adn I would hope that a refit done in a yard by a dealer's crew would come out looking nothing less than top notch.

Have you confirmed that your boat is indeed a 1982? Check teh HIN number, don't trust the sail numbers. Parts are bought and sold off C-25's teh same as O'Day 22's and someone in the boats past may have bought a complete rig with sails for some odd reason...

Once you have confirmed the boat's number you should contact Catalina and see if they have any records. They can let you know if the boat was originally a wing. The folks at teh plant are extremely helpful.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2010 : 23:06:54

Josh I have a 84 SR/FK and a 7.5 Honda outboard. The motor works fine for me on Lake Erie. The dealer I talked to several years ago told me if I needed more power I could change the cam and make it a 10hp.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 06:58:23

When I purchased my boat it had the original 1987 Mercury Sailmaster two-stroke outboard. Which worked fine for a few years, but when the lower unit went bad, I decided on a new motor. I purchased a Tohatsu 9.8 four-stroke XL shaft. The motor has been fine with the exception of having to clean the carb a few times.

However, I now wish I had spent the extra money on a Mercury. They are the same motor, with one exception, the Mercury has the controls built into the tiller handle. Forward/reverse/throttle, all in your hand. At first I didn't think it would be a big deal, but if you travel to different marinas and locations, the extra control on the Mercury is worth the money in the long run. Just my .02

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 07:21:44

For about 25 years, I had a Merc 7.5 hp with long shaft, and it was ample for an inland lake. I believe about 6 hp would ordinarily be enough on an inland lake, because you don't have to deal with currents, and inland lakes are generally sheltered from big winds and waves, but 7.5 is a good compromise.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 07:48:15

I have a Capri 25 in my marina and he uses a 6HP. This is on LI Sound, not a lake. He doesn't have any problems but I believe since he races he likes the lighter weight of the 6. I have a Honda 9.9 that is more than adequate. The issue here might be if you want battery charging capability's. The smaller engines don't have a charge system so if you want the engine to charge your battery's then you will have to pony up for a larger engine.

Edited by - islander on 12/04/2010 08:44:31

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 07:55:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 However, I now wish I had spent the extra money on a Mercury. They are the same motor, with one exception, the Mercury has the controls built into the tiller handle. Forward/reverse/throttle, all in your hand. At first I didn't think it would be a big deal, but if you travel to different marinas and locations, the extra control on the Mercury is worth the money in the long run.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll second Davy's comments.

The integrated throttle on the Merc is worth its weight in gold! Twist the throttle one way to go forward then simply rotate it the other way for reverse. Autolock for reverse, no gear lever to distract you, kill button on the throttle end...Why no other manufacturer has bothered to copy it truly boggles the mind.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 08:00:57

The outboard dealer offering the discount through the forum is Online Outboards, located in Cookeville, TN. Nice folks to deal with. They carry Nissan and Tohatsu, both made by Tohatsu. I bought the Nissan 9.8 XL shaft 4-stroke with electric start. It was about $100 more than the Tohatsu version, and I selected it because the Nissan name is better accepted here. The smaller HP Mercury motors are also made by Tohatsu. On the Nissan motor, the shifter is in front and easy to reach. The Yahama motors are also popular and have the shifter control on the tiller handle.
As an inland lake sailor, if you don't need electric start, consider the Tohatsu/Nissan 6 HP, which I think is available in the 25 in. shaft. It's less expensive and a lot lighter than the 9.8 and should provide sufficient power for most lake conditions. Originally, I would have gone that route except that the electric start was for my wife. In retrospect, I love it and am glad I bought the 9.8. It's a great motor and is very quiet running. A 5 HP motor will provide sufficient thrust to get you in and out of a slip, etc. but I would want more power if caught out in a storm. also, I don't think the 5's are available in 25 in. shaft, which you really do need.

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/04/2010 08:05:58

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 08:12:35

Josh,

I have a 1982 swinger with a tall rig. I also have the original Mercury 7.5 long shaft which starts on the second pull every time (knock on wood). I grew up with Mercury outboards and love them. The Merc on my boat sat unused for several years before I bought her. Took the engine home, cleaned all the gunk out of the carb from the gas left in there for a few years, installed a new impeller, plugged in the new gas tank and it started on the second pull! The problem I've run into here on the Chesapeake Bay is having to motor in the short chop the Bay can produce when the wind is fresh. Due to the short length of the swells and the engine's location on the stern, it's easy to (impossible not to) have the prop come out of the water and cavitate underway. This can become very frustrating if you must motor for a while. Your location and type of sailing might make this a non-issue. There isn't much we can do about it anyway, given the design of our boats. It's is also one of the reasons I just moved up to a Tartan 30 (anybody want to buy a very nice '82 swinger?)

I think the 7.5 horsepower range is plenty for the Bay and moves my boat at 5 knots all day. I don't know that I would go lower than 7HP for the Chesapeake. Your sailing conditions might dictate otherwise. I would look for a lower pitched prop if I were you... a 6 or 7 if you can find one... for greater response in reverse. Since our boats are limited by hull speed anyway, the lower pitch doesn't really hurt the cruising speed much (though it might increase fuel consumption a little bit) and really helps maneuvering in and out of tight spots (i.e. marinas and slips.)

If you are set on getting a new engine, I would also look closely at cockpit controls for F-N-R and throttle. This was an upgrade I was researching to accomplish over the winter until the new/old Tartan knocked on my door. Getting into a tight slip is exciting enough with a 6,000 pound boat and less than 10HP to move it. Add in a little leeway from the wind, a little current, and a gear shift lever on the engine and it gets downright exhilarating!

To answer your question, "can I get away with a 4 or 5 HP motor" the answer is "maybe." It really depends on items unique to your location and the way you use the boat. I would add that you might want to sell the boat one day, and a 4HP motor could be seen as "underpowered" to the next owner. YMMV.

Welcome to the forum and congrats on your new C25. It is a wonderful boat and this forum is an extraordinary source of talent, information, wisdom, and encouragement.

Edited by - on

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 14:24:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Josh - I just read through your blog - WOW! a demasting and 2 boats in your first year sailing! Amazing - and all the photography on there is top notch! keep up with it!

Have you confirmed that your boat is indeed a 1982? Check teh HIN number, don't trust the sail numbers. Parts are bought and sold off C-25's teh same as O'Day 22's and someone in the boats past may have bought a complete rig with sails for some odd reason...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks! I'm the guy that always has a camera in his his hand.
I checked my HIN, among the letters are 1949 which is my sail number. It also has an 80 in there. So, my boat must be a 1980 model. It doesn't explain the WK, however.

I'm also confused because my motor is mounted on the port side. In the aforementioned article it's stated that the C25 has a port tilt to accommodate the motor being mounted on the starboard side.I wouldn't think anything of it but the fuel locker is on the port side as well. If that's the case, wouldn't my fuel locker be on the starboard side too. The lazz. On the starboard sued just has a small storage dish.

I'm looking forward to calling the factory and seeing if I can get some answers. Do you have and rec's on what dept or who to ask for?
Thanks again!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 16:21:50

This is how I decipher my HIN: CTYA0410A999

CTYA = Manufacturer, Catalina yachts

0410 = Hull number

A9 = Month of manufacture/hull laid

99 = Year hull certified.

Edited by - John Russell on 12/04/2010 16:22:33

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 16:24:39

Hi Josh... Looking in our "old" Owners' list (link at left), hull 1949 was indeed built in 1980. The wing keel has to be a retrofit, which a number of people have done to swingers. Catalina started making a wing keel that fit into the swing keel trunk for that purpose.

The outboard bracket was on port for as long as they had the fuel shelf inside the "sail locker" (or "dumpster" to some of us). Around 1983, they made a separate cockpit fuel locker molded into the port seat so the fuel tank was not exposed to the bilge--then they could eliminate the vents by the transom. However, that made it difficult to mount the outboard bracket on that side, so they moved it to starboard. So owners simply run the fuel line from port to starboard either over the cut-out for the tiller, or through one of the cockpit drains that go through the transom (also a change some time after 1980). So I think everything you're wondering about is explained.

6 hp is sufficient for most waters, but an extra-long shaft (25") is highly recommended.

Enjoy your boat!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/04/2010 16:27:50

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 16:29:51

What Bristle Said. He's right about everything. Not bad for a Nigerian sailing out of Mystic, eh!

So now we need the lowdown on you and Genevieve. Where is home adn what waters are you sailing?

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 17:47:26

Josh - congratulations on making an excellent choice on selecting a sail boat...nice shots on your blog - I did notice that you are missing the backstay tensioning set-up...it can be pretty handy to have at times of really light and heavy wind...FYI, we've got an 8HP Merc 4 stroke long shaft, it's gotten the job done for the past 5 years.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 19:16:06

Josh welcome. I would 2nd the motion for a long(est) shaft motor, as I was motoring out of my harbor this Sept in 4-5 ft chop (outbound current against the wind) and the engine out of the water about 50% of the time. A shorter engine would be worse and could have gotten dunked.

Edited by - on

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 21:06:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Hi Josh... Looking in our "old" Owners' list (link at left), hull 1949 was indeed built in 1980. The wing keel has to be a retrofit, which a number of people have done to swingers. Catalina started making a wing keel that fit into the swing keel trunk for that purpose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow, thats solves that then doesn't it! Thanks so much, I can only image how one gets to be so knowledgable about a subject. I appreciate it. I do have one more question though, and it may be irrelevant, but my boat doesn't have a winch or any signs in the interior that it perviously had a SK. Could it by chance have been a Fin Keel that was replaced by the Wing?

Thanks again, I'm so glad I found such a great resource. Good stuff!

Edited by - on

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 21:11:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 Josh - congratulations on making an excellent choice on selecting a sail boat...nice shots on your blog - I did notice that you are missing the backstay tensioning set-up...it can be pretty handy to have at times of really light and heavy wind...FYI, we've got an 8HP Merc 4 stroke long shaft, it's gotten the job done for the past 5 years.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Jerry, we're loving it so far!
About your observation on our backstay. Are you reffering to the "adjustable backstay" they have on Cat. Direct or am I missing an standard part that came with the boat?
You're read my sailing blog, so you know it certainly wouldn't be out of the realm of reason for me to sail a poorly rigged boat!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2010 : 23:35:10

This pic gives a good shot of your backstay http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5003/5227853139_0ac2dd473a_b.jpg

On the 2 wires that go down to where your traveller is, there should be a set of rollers that squeezes teh wires together to add more tension. That is teh adjustable backstay Jerry speaks of. In this shot of Iris you can see how it goes on there. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_J-fPmOlFjnA/SoCBvKht02I/AAAAAAAAAAM/oGFSzpGFrX8/s1600-h/race_in_barrie_003.jpg (big picture)

Sadly a lot of pics have been lost from the Iris blog, but that one at least shows what you should see at teh back of your boat.

Edited by - on

Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 08:09:55

I replaced my Johnson 9.9 with the 9.8 Tohastu. The motor has been great. The carb did need a quick treatment with carb cleaner.
That took care of an idling issue. Check your motor mount. The old mount could be original to the boat and you really will be happier with a new mount. I got a Garelick 71090. With the extra long shaft and this motor mount there is enough travel to get the motor at any level needed and it does not come out of the water when someone walks to the bow or it rough water. The new mount is a pleasure.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 09:13:35

If your engine is cavitating, keep in mind that it usually will not cavitate nearly as much if you head downwind. If you must go to windward, you'll probably do better under sail. If the conditions are so rough that you can neither sail nor motor to windward, then your best choice would probably be to find a windward shore to tuck in behind, for shelter, and stay there until the conditions abate.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 09:54:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JoshMcCullock
 ...I can only image how one gets to be so knowledgable about a subject.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It's mostly by following this forum since about 1997, a couple of years before I bought my C-25. It turned out to be one of the reasons for my choice.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I do have one more question though, and it may be irrelevant, but my boat doesn't have a winch or any signs in the interior that it perviously had a SK. Could it by chance have been a Fin Keel that was replaced by the Wing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I can't speak to evidence of the winch--never had one... But take a look in your bilge--if there's longitudinal upward bulge, that was the trunk the swing keel partially lifted into. If on the other hand there's a sort of shallow well with keel bolts on the flat bottom, that "well" is the stub for the fin keel. I haven't heard of a conversion from a fin, but I can imagine that the version of the wing made for the factory would bolt to the same stub as the fin, while the version made to fit into the swing trunk might have been just for retrofitting swingers. But now I've told you way more than I know...

If you have the split backstay, then you can easily add the adjuster if you're interested in being able to control the draft on the main as well as harden the forestay by pulling the top of the mast back. If you're not into those finer points, your rig will do fine as it is.

Is Genevieve on one of the lakes around OKC? What are the conditions (depth, chop, winds, boats, etc.)?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/05/2010 10:16:52

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 10:20:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JoshMcCullock
 
About your observation on our backstay. Are you reffering to the "adjustable backstay" they have on Cat. Direct or am I missing an standard part that came with the boat? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, Josh, you're not. An adjustable backstay may be desirable but it is not necessary to safely sail your boat.

Edited by - on

JoshMcCullock
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2010 : 11:30:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 [quote]Originally posted by JoshMcCullock
 .
Is Genevieve on one of the lakes around OKC? What are the conditions (depth, chop, winds, boats, etc.)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks all! I think the finer points of mast tuning escape us at the time being. When the season ended we were finally starting to see the fruits of good sail trim. But, we'll have to pick up where we left off in the spring.

We're in a slip on Lake Hefner in OKC. There is a very large, city owned, marina with a courtesy dock and lots of amenities. There is also a private boat club on the lake that hosts weekly races. Their marina is really nice but I like the crowd at the city marina.

Hefner is a reservoir, so depth can vary from 5 to 75 feet. It's really low right now. Lots of boats are bottomed out where the slips are closer to shore. The lack of attention some boat owners have baffles me. Makes me wonder if they forgot about the boat or something.

Late summer is a good time to have a solid depthfinder, it can get pretty shallow. Thats another reason I'm really happy with the WK, no matter how it ended up on my boat!

The lake is pretty much run by sailors. Swimming isn't allowed so we don't get ski boats or anything like that. Just the occasional fisherman. It's primarily Cat22s and J boats. Our C25 is probably one of 50 boats larger than 22. After being on other lakes and seeing other marinas, I'm really appreciative of our cushy setup at Hefner. The lake is small-ish and can feel like your'e doing laps at times but we're at the highest point in OKC and there is never a lack of breeze!

Edited by - on

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