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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Racing the C-25

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Butch Miller
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/26/2010 : 19:16:58

To All, I am posting here because there does not appear to be much activity in the "racing" forum. I have a great 1983 C-25 which I have been club racing this past season. I would like to obtain any and all information from anyone who has raced these boats and what has worked, in addition to what has not. IE: specific sail designs,(currently Doyle is building me a matched set of main, 135 and 110 sails), mounting jib car tracks inside the lifelines for better pointing, best racing bottom paints such as E-paints or VC's. Also, any books or publications from experts who already have compiled this information. Obviously I could not find the information I am seeking, or I would not have posted. Would appreciate all the input I could get because I am tired of being beaten by the J-boats in the club. Thanks,

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 02:15:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Butch Miller
... mounting jib car tracks inside the lifelines for better pointing...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you please post some photos where you have the jib car tracks installed? I'm not racing but I'm courious.

Here are my two cents about racing in general. You have to be as light and ballanced as possible so remove any cushions, motor etc from the boat, but you probably already knows that

I think that you should use bigger sail (tall rig), spinnacker as you cannot change the hull design.
Also if you are sailing downwind you can try to lift a keel to lower the friction. I have a fin keel so I don't know if you gain some knots with this.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 06:55:57

You are sure to get many answers and advice to this post. So I'll be brief. First check the rules you are racing under (some of them preclude making certain changes to the rigging, lifting the keel, or even removing cushions from the boat). Bottom paints for speed depend on the kind of water you are sailing in and if the boat is stored in the water or out of the water. My personal opinion (which I'm sure many will disagree with) is that little is to be gained by moving the sail tracks inboard because the C-25 has a fairly inefficient hull and needs a fuller sail to drive it through chop. It is IMHO better to keep the boat moving fast than to point a couple of degrees higher. as far as sails are concerned, depending on what the wind conditions are where you sail, I recommend that you should also add a 150% or maybe even a 155% if you are only racing Jib and Main.

Oh! And one more item that might increase speed alot is fairing the keel and hull. I believe keel templets are availabe from Catalina or Catalina Direct.

Edited by - Renzo on 09/27/2010 07:02:56

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 07:34:49

Butch, I raced my C25 TR/FK alot, against lots of different kinds of boats, including J 24s, and I believe it is capable of sailing much better than it's rating, but it isn't capable of beating J24s and faster boats consistently, no matter how you equip it. The C25 is designed to be a cruiser/racer. The Js are designed to race. The C25 is much heavier, and thus can't plane as easily as the much lighter Js.

I have engaged in tacking duels with J24s, and, although the C25 can keep up with the Js in terms of speed, and it can almost match it in terms of pointing, it can't beat the J in a tacking duel. Thus, in my opinion, the C25 is capable of pointing well, and I doubt the mounting of genoa tracks inside the lines will matter much, if at all.

The thing that most helps a boat to point is it's ability to generate speed. The C25 has an exceptionally long waterline, which helps maximize it's potential for speed. Using a good racing paint for your area (I always liked VC17, although there are some new racing paints that I'm not familiar with.) will help maximize the boat's ability to generate speed, and fairing the keel and rudder will also do so, as well as scrubbing the bottom before any important race. The faster a boat, the closer it can point to windward.

I always raced my C25 with white sails, and our small lake wasn't conducive to long spinnaker runs, so I didn't believe the spinnaker-flying Js had a particular advantage over my non-spinn C25. If, however, the Js can get long spinnaker runs, they'll gain alot of ground on the non-spinn C25 downwind. I'm not sure how the C25 will compare with a J24 if both are flying spinnakers. The C25 carries a huge spinnaker, by comparison with the J24, and the size of the chute will undoubtedly help it.

What it can often do, however, is stay within striking distance of the Js, i.e., it can stay close enough to either beat them on handicap, or to occasionally beat them on elapsed time, if they make a mistake, or if you can capitalize on a favorable wind shift.

Racing success in light air has much more to do with the skill of the crew than with the design of the boat. Not many racers are skilled at light air sailing, and a slower boat can easily beat a faster one in light air, if sailed well. I always considered light air a good opportunity to beat "faster" boats.

The C25 doesn't have a widespread reputation as a racing boat, but, if the underwater surfaces are well-prepped, and, if it is well-sailed it is fully capable of taking other, supposedly faster boats down a notch, and there's always a special joy in slaying a giant.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/27/2010 07:45:04

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 07:37:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
Oh! And one more item that might increase speed alot is fairing the keel and hull. I believe keel templets are availabe from Catalina or Catalina Direct.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you point me to such products?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 08:14:27

Also, be sure to read the class rules. Some clubs require you to follow your own class rules even if racing under PHRF or Portsmouth.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 09:51:06

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 10:05:21

I believe our keys to success lie in rig tuning, a VC-17m bottom, and good sails.

Follow instructions in tech tips to tune your rig. A balanced, properly tensioned rig showed me the single biggest gains of any improvement I have made to my boat. Loose is fast, but not too loose.

We have painted our bottom every spring, and we sail regularly to prevent slime buildup. I don't dive my bottom, but I probably should.

Our sails are very diverse, adn we can pick and choose to suit conditions. We don't have a 135% but we do have 110% and 155% foresails, and two mainsails with different reefing points in them. This season all our sails except the storm jib have been pressed into service in varyingh conditions, and in at least one race we prolly shoulda raised it.

Finally, PHRF is very kind to our boats. Since for many of us this is a first-timer's boat, the ratings tend to reflect sailors who are new to racing. After a couple of seasons, once you start to clue in to strategy and how the boat works, you can really work that rating to your advantage. Of course its still great when you can beat teh competition on straight time.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 10:15:54

I absolutely agree with everything Steve mentioned.... After club racing my C25 for 10 years, I've found that selecting the right sized sail for existing wind conditions is very important. I've noticed that new racers tend to overpower, assuming more horsepower is the way to go. It's one of those rare cases when bigger isn't necessarily better. A small headsail is much more effective than reefing. I never reef in a race, but I do race a blade sail when its blowing. The C25 doesn't accelerate very well so maintaining momentum and keeping the boat on her feet will really pay off if you're competition is overpowered and getting beaten up in the puffs. And be REALLY smooth on the tiller.

I use vc 17 and spend a lot of time tuning.

Get rid of lee helm if you have it and eliminate any rudder vibration.

And the obvious... condition of your sails.

Oh, and be lucky!

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 13:17:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tomas Kruska
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
Oh! And one more item that might increase speed alot is fairing the keel and hull. I believe keel templets are availabe from Catalina or Catalina Direct.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you point me to such products?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Try these guys
http://www.compukeel.com/uniboats.htm

Also, in my quest to be brief,I forgot to mention how important it is to tune the rig. Buy a LOOSguage and keep records of how you tuned the rig and how the boat performs with different tension settings. Then try to improve on the tuning.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2010 : 06:56:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tomas Kruska
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
Oh! And one more item that might increase speed alot is fairing the keel and hull. I believe keel templets are availabe from Catalina or Catalina Direct.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you point me to such products?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Try these guys
http://www.compukeel.com/uniboats.htm

Also, in my quest to be brief,I forgot to mention how important it is to tune the rig. Buy a LOOSguage and keep records of how you tuned the rig and how the boat performs with different tension settings. Then try to improve on the tuning.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

For my Cat 25 Swing Keel they cost $70.00

What exactly do they do?

NCBrew

Edited by - NCBrew on 09/28/2010 06:58:06

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2010 : 07:16:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew For my Cat 25 Swing Keel they cost $70.00

What exactly do they do?

NCBrew
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When Catalina built our boats with cast iron keels, the castings were rather crude, and Catalina faired them somewhat imperfectly with filler materials, but, if you fill all the depressions so that the keel's shape is as designed, the keel will be more efficient, and the boat will sail much better. The templates show you where your keel shape is off, so you can smooth it out.

Templates aren't necessary unless you're seriously into racing, and they probably aren't necessary if the boat has a lead keel, because the lead keels had much better shape from the factory.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2010 : 08:55:21

'83 might have been the first year for the lead keel--mine was an '85. The lead keels are encapsulated in a thick blanket of fiber with resin impregnating the surface. I presume this blanket was to duplicate the shape of the less dense iron keel for class purposes, since the same-weight lead casting is thinner. If your keel is obviously not metal to the touch and has no rust spots, it's lead. And if the encapsulation isn't damaged, I'd say there is no faring to be done--just painting.

As to PHRF ratings, since the ratings are presumed to be based on results from stock, class-legal boats, generally rating penalties can be expected for variations from class rules (such as a larger traveler and/or mid-boom sheeting on a C-25). Keel templates can help a measurer determine that the shape of a keel has not been modified from the manufacturer's design (if class rules prohibit it as most do).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/28/2010 08:58:00

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