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Looked at a 1977 model today....looks rough...

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dubbinchris
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209 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2010 : 19:07:49

I was originally thread crashing on another guys thread who was considering a C-25 and asking a few questions. The asking price was $1500 obo and it claimed to need keel and interior work. After some emails I was told that the keel needed some lead work and the interior needed simply lots of cleaning.

Well I went and looked at her this evening. The first thing the seller told me was that someone looking inside hadn't closed her up completely and she got a lot of water inside when it rained. I did find a fair amount of water in her, but since I don't know these boats very well I don't know if water ended up in places it shouldn't have even if the main hatch was open. Anyway, all the cushions were pulled up so things could dry. The cushions incidently looked to be in very very good shape. It appeared as though all the rigging was there and the cables were in pretty good shape. There seemed to be lots of little cracks in the gel coat all over. The tiller is completely shot, but that's no biggie. The scariest part (to me at least) was the inside of the anchor locker. I will get to posting the pictures and let the comments fly.

Sorry there are so many...

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 19:24:24

Run.... run.... RUN away from that derelict. It looks like the current owner is trying to find a way to get the 5000lb load of trash out of his yard. All that crap about somebody leaving the companionway open and that's why its wet isn't even close to the truth. That boat will cost far more than it's worth to make it seaworthy.

From the single photo of the trailer, it looks like it might have some value but, you won't recoup the purchase price if you have to pay to dispose of the corpse that's sitting on it.

A $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 if you spend it up front or on the never-ending repairs that thing will require.

That's not a boat, it's landfill.

Take a look at [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21810"]this[/url] It won't cost you much more than this derelict would. It's in the water in Sandusky.

Edited by - John Russell on 09/14/2010 19:28:58

calden
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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 19:36:28

What John just said. And that just refers to what you can see that needs to be done. I'm sure there is a lot more that would reveal itself once you started opening things up.

Carlos

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4302 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 20:06:50

Run Chris, Run!!!! Why would you even want to think about trying to fix this boat up? With this much water damage the cockpit sole is probably rotten too!

Run Chris, Run!!!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 20:40:08

Run, run, run!! I agree. Also, pass on a recommendation from us all to the owner to start parting out the boat, then scrap the hull and sell the trailer. Parts may be worth more than the whole. The cushions appear to be recent, and the mast looks like it has good hardware on it. May have a roller furler; rudder could be sold, etc.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 20:50:22

There are a few bright spots...

Somebody upgraded to the latest spreader sockets (really!), replaced the lower shroud chainplates (with substandard backing), and either re-covered or replaced the cabin cushions... I love the anchor--ya, that'll work! (You buy those for inflatable dinghies so when you plant them on the beach nobody will hurt their feet.)

Now the trouble... I'm suspicious the keel has suffered structural damage. It's solid cast iron--not lead--or at least it used to be solid. I'm worried that it might break off the next time it's grounded--I'm not kidding. Judging this from pictures is shaky, but I haven't seen one that looked that bad. I actually wonder if the boat was dropped off a lift.

That damaged wood is probably just a sample. The entire deck, cabin top, and cockpit floor have plywood between the outer and inner fiberglass moldings. You can't see it except where there's damage like in that anchor locker. If water gets into the wood from any of the holes through the outer fiberglass, it rots. Let's see...... what are the odds here?? One consequence is visible around that bow pulpit stanchion, where the deteriorated core has allowed the laminate to break up. I almost always recommend a professional survey, in large part to check that. But not this time. I think I already know.

The outboard bracket that somebody "upgraded to" is not adequate for a modern 4-stroke outboard (even according to its manufacturer, Fulton). That, however, is by far the simplest and cheapest thing to solve--almost trivial by comparison to the basic hull. And I haven't gotten to the rig, electrical system, and the other things that can hurt you.

The ugly interior wood and mildew is easy to fix. But that's not the problem.

What else to you want to know?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/14/2010 21:00:03

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 22:26:46

Rough isn't the word, run.

I know how much work my boat has been over the years, and it was in pretty nice shape when we bought it. This one is not. Unless you really-really-really like working on boats, instead of sailing them, run.

Edited by - delliottg on 09/14/2010 23:23:20

dubbinchris
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209 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2010 : 22:42:34

Well guys, I've heard everyone loud and clear. I knew at that price the boat would need some work which I was willing to do, but I can't handle a basket case. I'm fully capable to pulling off every inch of wood to refinish, and re-doing all the electrical, etc. but when it comes to structural then I'm out. John mentioned something about the trailer looking decent and while I didn't mention it earler, the trailer did actually look pretty good. He also posted the link to another boat up in Sandusky that cost just a little bit more. I don't know if I'd consider $17.5k just a "little bit" more than $1.5k...lol. I haven't really looked into the boat loan area, but that's what it would take for me to get into that range up front.

Now my only concern is if I should potentially share a link to this thread with the current owners. I really don't think they are 100% aware of what a basket case this boat is. I know the husband has been up on the boat to raise/lower the mast to ensure everything was there to do so. They claim to have bought it somewhere up on lake erie two years ago and it's pretty much sat since they brought it home. I was initally corresponding with his wife via email, and while I didn't meet her personally she says she has arthritis and is unable to actually climb up in the boat.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. Guess my bigger boat dreams will have to wait a while. In the mean time anyone wanna take me sailing sometime in a bigger boat...lol? I'm a quick learner and can drive to the Cleveland area.

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 04:37:16

If I were you I will buy it and sell just the parts or use them on your future boat. The boat itself is for a serious reconstruction so send her to garbage.
Anyway just for the registered trailer and the equipped mast it's good enough.

Problem is that I'm from Europe

I have a missing Catalina hull number plate on the stern so If you buy it, send it to me please. I will put my number on it.

I have the same cracking around the stern pulpit stachions like this one due to rotten plywood. But its a pretty small peace of plywood that has to be changed so thats not really an issue.

My anchor locker looks also similar so another peace of resin and new plywood.
Problem is the rotten plywood around the windows and in the cabin top (around mast step).

Keel itself is dead too. Looks like some kind of lower catalina smile

Btw. Do you think that through some small cracks can leak water into the core?

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 04:49:00

Run all right, run to get the villagers with pitchforks and torches. But thanks for posting the pictures, that was really interesting to see how many things were done and how they have held up.

For Instance, I wondered how Catalina came up with the hose dimensions they used on the boat, they were for Garden Hoses...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7TC7bLo5RI&feature=related

Edited by - on

Jan Briede
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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 05:53:37

Good that you decided to run. I am restoring a 1979 model that I got for free. It is getting there, but by the time I'm done there is at least $2500 in the boat (not counting a new outboard) to get it at least back in the water. It is not even completely restored; I expect that will take three years. But at least now it floats comfortably and I can play in the water while working on it in my spare/non-sailing times. But then my boat was free, not $1500 or best offer!
Jan

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 07:02:25

Chris, I don't know what price range you can work in... John's boat (yup--that's his) is the newer C-250 that is in a completely different range, due simply to its age. There are many C-25s available under $10K--and many of those are way under. I bought our 1985 for around $9K in 1999 and sold her for around $8K in 2006 (with some fairly $ignificant maintenance and upgrade$). She was in fine shape both times--comfortable, attractive, and ready to sail safely (which helped me to sell her in about 18 hours). When you get down to $5K for a C-25, you're likely to be in the area where you're going to have to put several more Ks into her yourself to have a sound, comfortable boat. A C-22, on the other hand, reduces these numbers by several Ks.

That C-25 might very well be suitable only as parts plus land-fill. That's a risk people take when they buy something that "substantial" without knowing what they're doing. 1900 lbs. of cast iron and 2500 more lbs. of fiberglass is not something you just tow over to the town dump.

What I'm saying is, keep up the quest! There are lots of things out there and some anxious sellers, too. You'll learn something from every one you see--look at as many as you can. And get back to us as you go along!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2010 07:07:19

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 07:35:49

I've seen worse (mine) when I bought it a few years ago. Most of the problems look superficial, some look more serious. If you love working on boats it could be restored . . . however, when all is said and sone -- go onto "craigslook" and you will see a whole slew of C25's that appear to be in far better condition and for not much more ($2,500-$5,000). Up in southern NH there is an 82 that a car dealer took as partial payment that he is trying to sell for $2k, or best offer. Bet even with shipping that would be a better deal.

Edited by - bigelowp on 09/15/2010 07:37:03

John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 08:16:49

Chris, that boat in Sandusky is, as Dave pointed out, mine. I used it to illustrate the point that the derelict you looked at would cost you only a little (relative term) more than the thousands of dollars in repairs and time to bring it up to a safe/seaworthy condition. Keep looking, you'll find that there are a lot of boats that you can afford that are ready to sail. There are a lot of them in the $3,000 -$5,000. You might even find one for less that are ready to sail but need cleaning and far fewer repairs

Tomas, The idea of buying it to sell off parts loses its value when you consider the cost to dispose of the parts (hull, keel) that you'll never sell. The only person that would make sense for is the current owner.

As to your question about small cracks leading to damage to the core. The answer is yes, sort of. If they are simple gelcoat cracks and do not extend through the underlying fibreglass, it is unlikely to cause serious problems. But, small cracks often lead to bigger cracks.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 08:53:13

It is interesting that much of the hardware looks so good but the hull and keel are trash. I would be surprised to find any dry and intact core in the deck. The current owner should strip it and list the parts on the Swap Meet. Once he disposes of the the hull, he could sell the trailer in no time. Interesting to review the photos.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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299 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 08:56:35

If I owned that derelict I would try to find a place where I could legally stage a Viking funeral after I stripped off all the usable parts.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 09:21:15

I noticed that if you stripped off the last four letters of the boat name, it'd be a very appropriate name.

Edited by - on

glen
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359 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 09:33:18

OK you buy it and then you start to restore it. Three years go by and every chance you get you are still working on it. By now you have spent mucho $ and given up blood, the boat yard wants it gone and your wife has left you. You are probably wondering why you ever thought of getting into the stupid sport in the first place. OR you find a lovely little craft for about 7 grand and set sail the next day. The choice is yours

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 09:38:13

Strip it and have a party...
.

Edited by - on

ckroll
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 10:32:47

Well on one hand, after looking at these pics I kind of feel good about my recent project boat but on another hand now I'm kinda worried too! We bought our 81 for $1500 and it looked pretty rough as well but APPEARED to have good bones. It had been parked on a trailer for about 10 years and did have some water in the anchor locker and bilge area. Fortunately, we did NOT notice (or have discovered since) any rot like shown above but will still have to replace the the plywood under the cockpit floor. We also replaced the bulkhead but it was quite apparent where those leaks came from. Everything seems to be going well now and baring any unforeseen issues we should have her in the water by mid October with a total investment of about $3000. I should note that this boat also came with a trailer and a 9.9HP Honda Engine (carb needs rebuild/cleaning).

What I would like to ask from some of the pros here regarding potential project boats is how can you truly know what's under the deck (rot wise)? We simply used our eyes (looking for cracks top and bottom) and feet (feeling for soft spots). What other things should we look/feel for moving forward?

Sorry for hijacking this thread (if that's what it's called).

Edited by - ckroll on 09/15/2010 10:33:48

Tomas Kruska
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 10:52:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ckroll
 What I would like to ask from some of the pros here regarding potential project boats is how can you truly know what's under the deck (rot wise)? We simply used our eyes (looking for cracks top and bottom) and feet (feeling for soft spots). What other things should we look/feel for moving forward?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Very nice handbook is on this site http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/moisture_meter

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 10:59:34

For a good-old-boat that has many redeeming features and that you would consider buying, you would hire a professional marine surveyor who would use his moisture meter on many places along the cored decks. Those measurements tell you where water may have intruded. On this boat, it is clear that essentially all of the decks are waterlogged beyond repair. No sense in a survey here.

...and no one mentioned the rudder that is ruined and has a big split on the top where rain has soaked through the plywood core for a decade or more.

Go get a nice boat! There are lots of them around!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 13:05:28

Tapping on the deck with a plastic hammer produces a dull "thud" with very wet or damaged core, good core sounds solid. Brown stains below deck suggest water leaching tannin from the core, tan or light brown might dry out, but dark brown needs serious repair. High or low spots can be delamination or core compression. While the severity of problems are variable, this boat has them all in extreme and is useful as a textbook of things to look for. The C-30 I was looking at appeared to have some issues that I could address, but the surveyor made it a no deal in 15 minutes and only charged me half for an aborted survey.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 14:37:58

This one just might qualify for the Ugly Sailboat thread that was on the forum. Looks to me that someone started to fix it up and then found out that it was not worth it. Looks like new standing rigging, New outboard bracket and the covers for the cushions look like new because they are the later fabric used in the 86 or so and up. I agree on running away or better yet give him a quote on hauling it out of his yard for him.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 19:35:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dubbinchris
 Now my only concern is if I should potentially share a link to this thread with the current owners. I really don't think they are 100% aware of what a basket case this boat is. I know the husband has been up on the boat to raise/lower the mast to ensure everything was there to do so. They claim to have bought it somewhere up on lake erie two years ago and it's pretty much sat since they brought it home. I was initally corresponding with his wife via email, and while I didn't meet her personally she says she has arthritis and is unable to actually climb up in the boat.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This whole deal sounded funny to me from the beginning. Why would someone with arthritis go buy a boat in another state, bring it home, and then just park it. Especially since they don't seem to know much about boats!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9075 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2010 : 20:32:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dubbinchris
 Now my only concern is if I should potentially share a link to this thread with the current owners. I really don't think they are 100% aware of what a basket case this boat is.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I wouldn't. What we've said here is mostly speculation... We haven't seen the boat. My speculation about the keel, for example, was a concern directed to you based on very limited photographic evidence. And as everyone here knows, I've been....... ummmmmmmmm..... wrong... before.

We suggested the boat needed a lot, or maybe a LOT of work. They probably know that. Any potential buyer should get his own expert opinions, as they apparently did not. Otherwise, basically the worst that will happen is the buyer (at this point, those sellers) will be stuck. If they sell it, they'll be off the hook and somebody else will be in their situation. This is one example of why many of us stress the value of a professional pre-purchase survey--to either know what you'll have to attend to, or to know to walk, or run, away.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2010 20:51:51

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