Association Forum - Tiller/Rudder shimmy

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Tiller/Rudder shimmy

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2010 : 11:05:12

Ok I did look through all the post on this one. My rudder shimmys at times. I am wondering is this normal? Are my gudgeons worn? There is a little slop in the metal bracket that connects the tiller and the rudder. I honestly believe that the rudder is fluttering in the water. Any solutions?

Eric F Martinez
1985 Fix keel, Tall rig

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2010 : 11:28:22

It would be helpful to know some specifics about your boat. Most of us include it in our signature section. Include things like year built, keel type (swing keel -SK, fin keel-FK, wing-WK) and rig type (tall or standard).

Are the pintles shaking in the gudgeons (Pintles and gudgeons are the connection points of the rudder to the transom) or is it where the tiller attaches to the rudder? Neither of these should have a lot of play but a little in the gudgeons may be expected if they're getting old. The tiller should be firmly attached to the rudder and not shimmy at all. If that's where the shake is, you might need to tighten a couple of bolts. If it's in the gudgeons, you might want to look at replacing them or adding some bushings.

Worst case: Are the gudgeons firmly attached to the transom?

Edited by - John Russell on 04/07/2010 11:29:56

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2010 : 11:29:50

Its normal on the older 25s as the pintles (on the rudder) and gudegons (on the boat) get worn. Catalina Direct sells an upgrade kit that really beefs up the strength of these critical parts.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2010 : 11:41:19

You might want to at least look at the J24 rudder hardware offered by Shaefer Marine. I have these on my C25 and they are bullet-proof.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2010 : 12:23:56

I had flutter in the original rudder. I replaced it (for other reasons) with the balanced design that Catalina introduced in about 1988, using the original pintles and gudgeons. The flutter disappeared--apparently because of the improved foil shape which reduces turbulence toward the trailing edge. And the "balance" was like power steering compared to the original.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/07/2010 12:25:11

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2010 : 14:06:36

I replaced my gudgeons with the CD parts that have bushings and eliminated all play. It really is worth doing. I didn't replace the pintles, but elongating the hole so I could still put a pin in was enough to make me wish I had ordered the pintles at the same time.

edit: And yes, your rudder is probably fluttering in the water.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 04/07/2010 14:08:28

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2010 : 17:06:57

I looked at the Shafer Marine and they are WAY more expensive than the Catalina Direct solution. They do look strong. However, I've never heard of the CD upgrade failing.

I've been knocked down under spin at 8+ knots boat speed on the stock pintles and gudegons with the tiller all the way to weather so hard the tiller was bending and not had pintle or gudegon failure.

Edited by - on

unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2010 : 07:15:29

I will update my profile asap then. I have a 1985 hull 4849. I kust bought a monthh ago. It is my first boat. It is a fixed keel with what I believe to be a tall rig. Standard the mail and jib are offset heights right? Mine are the same height.

So I am hearing that it is mostly likely the rudder, then the gudeons.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2010 : 07:39:21

Usually it is the pintles fit into the gudgeons. Check the tiller to rudder connection to be sure it is snug, and see if the pintles can bang around in the gudgeons when you shake the rudder or sweep the tiller rapidly back and forth, the usual cause, or, very less likely, that the pintles are loose on the rudder. The CD bushed p/g set almost always the fix.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2010 : 12:15:23

...And Catalina Direct Tech Support recommends (as do many Forum members) cutting a 8" hole with a hole saw and installing their [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1320&ParentCat=34"]Inspection Plate [/url] in the transom. Then the upper gudgeon can be replaced with the [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=301"]Replacement Gudgeons [/url] simply. The lower gudgeon mounting bolts/nuts are accessible through the quarter berth under the cockpit.

It's been 32 years of sailing in Michigan, Florida, and Maryland for my pintles and gudgeons. This summer they get replaced.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/08/2010 12:25:35

buzzardsolo
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
18 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2010 : 18:14:10

Eric,

A few years ago I upgraded to the Catalina Direct pintles and gudgeons. As others have said, it's well worth the money. The bushings do a nice job of tightening up the slop and movement.

However, my rudder would occasionally still "flutter". I do have the balanced rudder, so I was baffled.

What I eventually discovered was that a little bit of slime and/or seagrass on the rudder was causing the problem. I guess it doesn't take too much marine growth on the leading edge and/or the sides of the rudder to "unbalance" it. The smooth, symmetric, laminar flow around the rudder must get more turbulent as the smooth surfaces and leading edge get caked up with growth.

Try that. I scrub mine a couple of times each summer and it's worked every time.

Edited by - on

unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2010 : 09:22:27

Thanks i was wondering if that could be an issue, I ahve been cleaning now for 2 months and the bottom and rudder are dirty,

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2010 : 12:02:21

If you're serious about performance, you should have NO rudder vibration or flutter... It you're not, it's still annoying. Get rid of all play in the gudgeons, either by replacing them (the CD ones are fine) or if you can, replace the bushings. CD sells those too. To do the upper gudgeon, you have to use CD's inspection plate kit. It's not a big job, but you'll need a hole saw. If eliminating all the gudgeon slop doesn't solve the problem, you've got turbulence generated by an uneven taper on the trailing edge of the rudder. Then, it's sanding block and test sail time.

Don't make the trailing edge sharp. A squared of 1/16" edge on a slight angle works best. Why? I have absolutely no idea.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2010 : 15:38:43

Try googleing "rudder vibration" and let us know if the results match what you are experiencing... You should find lots of suggestions that way as well.

Also, around our marina this is called "Rudder Shudder" and is pretty common on the older boats. Cures range from improving attachment to fairing and reshaping keels and rudders. YMMV

Edited by - on

unclaimed baggage
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2010 : 20:53:45

ok cleaning didnt help. I ordered new hardware, I will report the changes.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2010 : 19:51:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well that's an interesting C25 you have there Andy. Catalina logo just below the rub rail, wing keel, teak on each side of the entryway, full stern rail and the notch in the transom for the tiller. Sort of a crossover model?

Edited by - OJ on 04/17/2010 19:55:59

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2010 : 08:53:42

OJ,

No crossover model, just a slightly modified '87. The logo you see is the boat's name logo...I had a graphic designer friend design it.
Mods are:
Harken windward sheeting traveler relocated behind companionway.
8 lines led aft
companionway rails are custom made out of HDPE
VC 17 (burnished) on faired bottom
Ruddercraft rudder and tiller by Ida Sailor
new light weight sheets and halyards
lewmar 16ST winches
autopilot
5 hp Honda 4cycle (46 lbs)
sail inventory:
North Norlam tri radial 4.50z #1 (2009)
Doyle Pentex tri radial #1 (2000)
Doyle Dac #3
North Nordac 7oz. working jib (2009)
North storm jib
Asym drifter
North loose footed main (2009)
Doyle full battened main (2001)

I've got way more money invested in the boat than it's worth, but since I love how it sails and don't plan on selling it...I don't care. Sailboats, as most of us know, are something really special...power boat people just don't get it.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2010 : 09:55:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 . . . the logo you see is the boat's name logo...I had a graphic designer friend design it . . .<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Andy, I see the boat name - I'm referring the the small "Catalina Yachts" logo directly beneath the rub rail. I didn't think that was added until the new deck design in 1989 - but maybe it's assocaited with the wing keel. Hence my wondering if it was a crosssover model - just curious.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">. . . Harken windward sheeting traveler relocated behind companionway . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've often considered this modification. The advantages are obvious and I assume one quickly adjusts to the slightly higher step required when entering/exiting the cabin. Do you pick up any pointing ability if you position the car all the way to windward when close-hauled?<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">. . . I've got way more money invested in the boat than it's worth, but since I love how it sails and don't plan on selling it...I don't care. Sailboats, as most of us know, are something really special...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Agreed, and if you spend many overnighters on your boat you (and similar to a house) want to be comfortable.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2010 : 10:37:33

Sorry OJ, I thought you were referring to the name. I can't see the catalina logo on that picture due to my laptop resolution setting...The logo is stock so it must have been new on the '87 models. The windows are also like the '89.

The traveler set up is absolutely the best mod you can do to one of these boats. I wouldn't say it helps the pointing ability, but it REALLY helps when sailing in big puffy air. It's a vast improvement over the marginal stock set up.

AAA

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2010 : 11:34:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 The traveler set up is absolutely the best mod . . . It's a vast improvement over the marginal stock set up.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After a tack in moderate to heavy winds - by the time a crew member cranks in the foresail and then turns to reposition the traveler car and adjust main-sheet tension - the skipper is already settled into position with the tiller - the crew has to then step over the tiller and/or skipper to get to the windward aft corner!

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2010 : 12:53:19

I can list many reasons for making the modification and have listed them several times in the forum. Safety when sailing on the edge is the biggest. I got tired of losing my hat and sunglasses with an unintentional jibe in the puffs!
Regarding going to weather (close hauled), it makes it much easier to keep the boom down the centerline without flattening sail shape. It's actually another sail control under some circumstances (light air).

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.