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Sailing downwind

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spencerwait
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/25/2010 : 17:29:52

I've read a tremendous amount of threads concerning sailing upwind and pointing, but not much on sail trim for downwind legs (without a spinaker). Last week during our local spring series regatta, we got spanked on the downwind leg of the course. I'm competing mostly with 150-180 PHRF boats, but I still feel WE could have sailed faster. I don't have a whisker pole yet, but wanted to know what I'm not doing as far as sail trim/adjustments/tactics on the downwind legs. I don't have an adjustable backstay. Can anybody give the basic for sailtrim downwind in light/medium/heavy air? We did slacken the outhaul and had crew weight forward. Boom Vang tension? What I have read is that the catalina does well on downwind legs, but nobody says how! Thanks for all the help and sugestions.

Spence Wait
Catalina 25 SR/SK "HALCYON"

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 18:42:01

If you have an adjustable backstay, ease it going downwind and snug it back up just before the turning mark. Consider easing the jib halyard to match the sag in the headstay, if you can tighten it back easily. What headsail are you using? BTW, a working jib can take a 12' pole which can be made easily and cheaply using a closet dowel and some inexpensive hooks and bolts from HD.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 19:13:17

I have found that a whisker pole (mine is homemade from an extendable painters pole, idea from Steve Milby) helps a ton. I use it on a 150, and the homemade whisker pole get a lot of strain put on it, but so far it's held up nicely. Otherwise, what everyone else said.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2010 : 20:13:27

If you don't have a 150% genoa you cannot compete against 150-180 PHRF boats.
For a 150% you need a pole which will extend 16'. (no pole = no wins).
When you turn downwind, loosen the jib and main halyards SLIGHTLY and throw off the backstay. Don't sail DDW but keep the windex arrow pointed over the windward tab and keep the pole and boom in a straight line. If the wind shifts a little
forward, ease the pole and trim the main. If it goes back a bit do the reverse or change course slightly to keep that windex arrow over the tab. This is your fastest point of sail downwind.
This works in light or moderate winds. If the wind is over 15k I don't set a pole.
Downwind is where you concentrate on the details. Your lunch or beer gets consumed going to weather!

Edited by - on

spencerwait
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 06:45:00

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunetely I don't have an adjustable backstay. Fairing out the keel, sanding the bottom, installing a traveler and moving the mainsheet forward are priority. I am thinking about getting the whisker pole. I read some use the painters pole. Has anyone tried the tree branch trimmer blade fiberglass extension poles? It might have a little too much bend. I'm using a brand new 150 roller furling North head sail. That's what was sooo discuraging last weekend. New headsail, no win. Obviously, not the only factor.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 07:03:15

If you are truly down wind then you are being pushed and sail area is magic. Keep the boomvang on to keep the boom from rising, which effectively reduces sail area.
To the group, are all of you using a pole wing on wing or are some of you using a pole on a broad reach?
To the poster, I am a big believer in real hardware, buy a proper pole, used on eBay if need be. These guys with their homemade poles are not racing and sailing in upper wind ranges with them. If you are asking crew to set a pole in competitive conditions you cannot expose them to the possibility of pole failure and possible harm. Setting a pole in a race is hard enough with out jury rigged equipment and worrying if the pole is going to blow up.Since I am in a photo mood today, here is my favorite pole shot, (because its pretty). And a shot of my Merit in a race where the racing imperative is obvious; how many boats are at the mark?

Edited by - pastmember on 03/26/2010 07:21:48

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 07:20:11

On the Racing page of this website, you'll find two articles of racing tips. In the article that I wrote, there's a section captioned "light air racing," but it really covers both light air racing and downwind racing.

The short version is, steer nearly dead downwind in the puffs, and broad reach in the lulls. The stronger the puffs, the closer you should sail to DDW. On the downwind leg, the goal is to get as far downwind as fast as you can. The shortest distance to a downwind objective is dead downwind. When you're broad reaching, your boatspeed is faster, but you're sailing at an angle that doesn't make as much progress downwind. A wind doesn't have to be strong enough to blow your hat off to constitute a "puff." A puff on a light or moderate air day is still a puff, for the purpose of the above principle.

Regarding pole length, you need to check your local club rules and local PHRF rules. Chesapeake Bay rules, for example, limit whisker pole length to the length of the J measurement (10.3' on the C25). If the rules permit, then the 16' pole is preferable.

The telescoping paint roller pole and similar homemade devices, and the forespar adj 6-12 are usable only in lighter winds. Like Derek, I don't use a pole at all in stronger winds in short races, when the wind is strong enough to keep the sail from collapsing, and it isn't worth the hassle to put up the pole and take it down. In long downwind races, I like to use a whisker pole, even in strong winds.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/26/2010 07:35:40

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 07:23:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 If you are truly down wind then you are being pushed and sail area is magic. Keep the boomvang on to keep the boom from rising, which effectively reduces sail area.
To the group, are all of you using a pole wing on wing or are some of you using a pole on a broad reach?
To the poster, I am a big believer in real hardware, buy a proper pole, used on eBay if need be. These guys with their homemade poles are not racing and sailing in upper wind ranges with them. If you are asking crew to set a pole in competitive conditions you cannot expose them to the possibility of pole failure and possible harm. Setting a pole in a race is hard enough with out jury rigged equipment and worrying if the pole is going to blow up.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I used a pole on my 135 on a broad reach and came in third overall the other weekend.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 08:33:55

What everyone else said AND mast tuning for optimal performance. Of course, that means that the adjustable backstay is a necessity,when you round the mark and want to go upwind just as effectively as you go downwind.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 08:51:03

Steve, why does the Chesapeake limit whisker poles to 10'3" - that's as useless on a 150 as mammary glands on a male bovine! Don't they appreciate the difference between whisker and spinnaker poles?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 09:17:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Steve, why does the Chesapeake limit whisker poles to 10'3" - that's as useless on a 150 as mammary glands on a male bovine! Don't they appreciate the difference between whisker and spinnaker poles?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree, Derek, and I initially hated their rule, but I think I understand their reasoning. They want to slow down non-spinn boats.

As you know, a boat with a 150 poled-out to the max is nearly as fast downwind as a spinnaker boat, and it's much less complicated to use than a spinnaker, which can often provide much entertainment when things go wrong (on someone else's boat). The short pole means that the non-spinn boat can't reach as high as the spinnaker boat, because the genoa will get backwinded if it tries to reach too high. That slows down the non-spinn boat considerably. The PHRF people want to encourage the use of spinnakers, because it requires more skill, and it's just plain breathtaking to see all those multicolored spinnakers blossom all around you on a spring day.

As a long time non-spinn racer, it means I've had to learn all about spinnaker sailing in a hurry, but I have to admit, spinnaker sailing is fun and challenging, and I'm inclined to think the Chesapeake PHRF folks are probably right. It isn't in the best interests of the sport for non-spinn boats to be competitive with spinnaker boats. All the clubs on the Bay have separate spinn and non-spinn classes, so, the practical effect of the rule is that spinn and non-spinn boats don't race against each other around here.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 10:17:01

Get a spinnaker. I beat all the fast boats in our All Catalina club in light air on the downwind legs. Its really fun. For the money you spend on a new pole, get a used chute, get a used spin pole (10 foot 6 inch - I got mine off an abandoned Cat 27) set up the foreguy and topping lift, spin halyard, spin sheets and blocks, and actually start beating people.

The boats with poled out jibs will NEVER be competitive with a spin boat.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 11:41:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 The boats with poled out jibs will NEVER be competitive with a spin boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Jim, when I won the 1985 C25 National Regatta racing non-spinn in a fleet of 29 C25s, all racing in one start, any boat could fly a chute at his option. The handicaps were based on flying a 155, and no additional handicap time was assessed for flying a chute. Several racers flew chutes, including the immediate past national champion, who had come to defend his title. The non-spinn boats had no limit on the length of their whisker pole.

It's just not true that a boat with a poled-out jib can't be competitive with a spinnaker boat. In a long race, or a race which is skewed in favor of spinnaker boats with long or numerous downwind legs, the spinnaker boat will be favored somewhat, but in the C25 National Regattas, most of our regattas are held on smallish inland lakes, and they usually can't create such long runs. Moreover, it would be unfair to not assess extra handicap time for flying a chute, and then to also skew the course in their favor with extra long runs.

At the end of the first day of racing in 1985, the spinnaker racers complained that the downwind legs weren't long enough to suit them, so the race committee accommodated them by setting up the longest downwind legs possible for the last day, and I still beat them.

That's why I believe it's fair, in most of our National Regattas, for spinn and non-spinn boats to race against each other with no handicap differentiation. As long as there's no limit on the length of the whisker pole for a non-spin boat, and as long as the course isn't especially long or skewed in favor of spinnaker boats, I believe spinn and non-spinn boats are reasonably and fairly competitive.

I strongly suspect the PHRF rules in your area limit the length of whisker poles for non-spinn boats to the length of the J measurement, Jim, and, under that limitation you'd be absolutely right. But, a long whisker pole makes an amazing improvement in the downwind performance of these boats, and, on shorter race courses, the non-spinn boats can beat spinn boats. In fact, in our national regattas, I have passed spinnaker boats on the downwind legs with a poled-out 150. Once I did it with a poled out 110.

There's something that I have vaguely understood instinctively, but not well enough to be able to explain it until now. When sailing downwind with an extra long whisker pole, the boat's heading might be deep downwind, but you can orient your sails to the wind almost as if you were on a beam reach, the fastest point of sail. That long whisker pole enables you to sail downwind, usually the slowest point of sail, at extraordinary speed.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/26/2010 17:32:24

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 15:33:40

I agree with Steve. In the Nationals on the Columbia River I was on a poled out 155 boat in light air. We beat every boat that was flying a chute in all 7 races.
On our lake I can pop the pole and if a J-22 flying a chute is just behind it takes him a full leg to overtake me.
If you fly a chute in our races you are automatically in the spinnaker fleet.

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 03/26/2010 15:34:37

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2010 : 17:51:32

In Light Air I can pass all the Catalina 34, 36 etc. with poled out jibs while working my chute. Especially on mile+ long legs in calm water. If it is breezy (like 15 - 20 knots plus) it is different of course as they go 7.5 knots DDW and I go 6.

In light air day races to the Coronados (15 miles offshore) where the run out is downwind I'll wager I bet every non spin boat in the Catalina Clubto the island.

You guys may be masters at working the pole. Most boats I see set it, forget it, and run the rhumb line (keep in mind I don't have one - I traded it for the spin pole).

Maybe my set up, but I am really fast down wind under spin and can't point and get rolled upwind by everything afloat.

All of the racers coming to the 2010 nationals will vote to discuss rules for spin / non spin. What I am thinking so far is a mixed fleet where non spin boats get a 19 sec/mile handicap adjustment (that is what we do in our club). Or we all just sail JAM - although I don't have a whisker pole.

I strongly believe that keeping a boat heated up, gybing down wind, and avoiding the DDW run is fastest in our light air conditions(although longer course).

Edited by - on

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