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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

capsize

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steve25
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/23/2010 : 10:33:29

I am new to this forum and purchased a 1986 Catalina 25 in March of 2009. I do all of my sailing on the Chesapeake bay. I'm wondering if anyone has any information of whether or not the 25 is self righting. I would like to know before I push her too much. I'm generally very conservative, however it would be good to know how much she can take.

Thanks for your replies

standard rig fixed keel

1986 C-25 SR/FK #5427

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:09:33

Absolutely. Read this the very recent [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20864"]discussion on heavy seas and broaching[/url]. Welcome to the community!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/23/2010 11:12:31

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:11:22

Steve, welcome to the forum.

In the event that you are knocked down (i.e. mast hits the water) the keel should bring you back up. It should even bring you back up should you turtle (i.e. mast straight down -- unlikely). However, that doesn't mean that your boat is unsinkable. Should you get knocked down and take on sufficient water, you will sink. So, if you find yourself in conditions that threaten, make sure hatches, etc, are closed so as to limit the amount of water that gets in.

You want to become a weather expert in your area and try to avoid conditions that might result in such a circumstance.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:14:18

From what I gather from the more experienced members on this forum,You can heel these boats up to somewhere around 40-45 deg. then they will round up. If you were to broach,It will self right providing all the hatches and lockers are closed and secured. I would be more concerned as to what your wife will do to you after you dump her in the drink!

Here is a calculator if you want to play with the numbers.http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__capsize.htm

Edited by - islander on 01/23/2010 11:42:54

steve25
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:41:46

Thanks for the info. Great to know. Now I can push with a little more confidence. I think I'm going to find this forum invaluable. Thanks again

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:51:04

We always like to caution new owners that the C25 is designed for use as a coastal cruiser, and it isn't intended to be sailed in heavy weather. When heavy weather is approaching, the best choice would be to secure all the hatches and head for shelter. That having been said, if you get caught out, the Catalina 25 can survive almost any weather that you're likely to be caught in on the Bay, if you have enough seamanship skills to bring her through, but don't underestimate the seriousness of storms on the Bay. Boats much bigger than the C25 can and do sink during storms on the Bay. Before you think about putting your life at risk, make sure you have both the skills and the equipment to get through it.

Edited by - on

steve25
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2010 : 13:59:52

Point taken. I've been caught by a storm or two on the bay with my previous sailboat, a Tonic 23. It didn't feel nearly as stable as the 25. If anything I'm overly cautious. And I'm sure I'll be one of the first to head for shelter, but just knowing the above info, I'll try to enjoy the rough parts a little more :) Thanks

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:11:38

You have gotten some very good advice. My personal experience with a boat virtually identical to yours is that no matter how hard the blow, it will either round up, or the heavy keel will bring it back up.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:38:59

[url="http://www.youngestround.blogspot.com/"]Turtle Story[/url] -- Jessica Watson in the South Atlantic

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5357 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 18:30:20

My wife and I read this story this morning, and it gave us the chills! She tells us a wave picked up the boat, raised it up on a crest, flipped her and dropped her upside down into the trough. She mentioned rogue waves from the sides doing most of the damage.

I asked, what's point of panicking? like a trouper, she kept her head, waited it out while she was strapped in, and picked up the pieces after the blow was over. Nonetheless, I think most of us would have needed a change of clothes after an episode like that.

The 1" thick solid targa frame holding her solar panels in place were twisted like pretzels by the waves.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 20:07:27

Commenting on the initial post, not the story about rogue waves and getting thrown upside down: I learned on our C-22 to use spring-loaded clips, like on the end of a dog leash, on the cockpit hatches when the weather piped up. This works well on the C-25 also. Keeps them secure but allows easy access, too. We close up the main hatch and secure the forward hatch as well.
I can barely imagine what Jessica went through. Kudos to her choice of boats and to her rigger!

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/24/2010 20:33:03

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2010 : 22:08:01

That story gives you an clue why, while the C-25 is a solid "coastal cruiser" (where a skipper can pick an choose when to sail or when to hide), it is not a blue-water passage-maker, where whatever happens is going to happen, and you have no choice but to deal with it. 25' seas (think of a 2-story colonial house) are hard for many of us to imagine, but a thousand (or even a few hundred) miles out, something we would have to expect to deal with. There are boats designed for that (assuming the skipper is also prepared), and others that are not. The C-25/250 is not.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/24/2010 22:09:27

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 19:28:38

Early on, I learned (I think on this forum) that, in general, a wave in excess of 1/3 the lwl, is necessary to capsize a monohull...in our case, that's an 8' wave...and our simple plan is to avoid those conditions...

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5357 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 19:44:38

Wow! we can get 6 foot chop at the mouth of the Housatonic River in Stratford CT with a long duration of southeasterlies and a strong opposing current pouring out of the river.

It's always felt like a washing machine, but I've never thought of it as a capsize hazard!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 20:35:16

As I recall, the US Sailing Capsize Screen formula gives a number slightly under 2 (something like 1.9x) for the C-25 fin. 2 is their threshold number for boats that will probably not capsize except in extreme conditions--the higher the number, the greater the vulnerability. It's admittedly a simplistic formula, but probably is in the ballpark for "normal" designs like the C-25, if not for more extreme designs such as those using deep bulb keels and light-weight hulls (or lead masts

). Anyway, the C-25 is on the right side of the threshold, but just barely--one of many indications that she's a trustworthy coastal cruiser but not a blue-water passage-maker.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 21:53:59

I appreciate Dave's input for the 25 as one of the local 22's did knock down with 3 aboard and as the mast hit the water they all heard the swing keel slid back to the hull. No righting ability. The skipper later was asked if he had locked the keel and he never knew the boat had a keel lock. The question for our swing keel 25's is at what degree of heeling would this happen. There are a lot of factors and I wouldn't want to test them but my 25 has during racing taken several knockdowns with the spinnaker and no water in the cockpit. We don't know just how far we were over but the rudder was out of the water. The excitement of the race which we were leading kept us focused on getting back up and wining the race and only later realized what had happened and the boat took care of itself and righted. We gained confidence in the boat but didn't want to go out and do a knock down again. Wave action and wind could keep you down and there would be a different story. Like Dave says the 25 is not a blue water boat and we haven't talked about the pop tops.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 10:05:59

Jim, the ballast-to-displacement ratio for the C-25 is considerably higher than the C-22, and as you know, the swing keel itself weighs almost three times as much. Either boat needs to go past 90 degrees, at least momentarily, for the keel to self-retract. The C-22's relatively wide beam and light hull might be more likely to do that as the mast hits, especially if waves are on the beam. I've heard of several C-22s turtling, but never a C-25 including the lightest one, the SK.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 19:08:41

We were racing in 35k gusting to 50k on Saturday. We rounded up a few times but never ever got water in the cockpit. (Lots of luff driving!)

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 11:53:54

If you are in conditions that make you wonder abou tth eself-righting abilities of your boat, the first thing you should be doing is making sure that everyone has a tether on.

The boats take care of themselves, the people not so much.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 14:55:03

Welcome back, Chris! Have your circumstances changed?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 15:04:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 We were racing in 35k gusting to 50k on Saturday... (Lots of luff driving!)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That reminds me of how much drive you can get to weather in a big blast, with relatively little heel, by luffing the main and sheeting the jib/genny in tight--cars way back so the top twists off and the bottom is flat. The "sweet spot" on that sail is much lower than on the main. There were blustery days when I didn't just luff the main--I left it under the sail cover, and had a very nice ride under our full 130.

Edited by - on

steve25
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 16:43:22

Being a newbie I have another question raised by the last post. If I'm in heavy wind or even relatively heavy wind, it it better (in general) to fly the main or jib? (assuming you only wanted one) I've sailed boats in the past that just didn't handle at all with only the jib, and others that seemed to prefer the jib and no main in a blow.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 16:59:21

Many will advocate sailing under jib alone. I'd suggest you play around with what works for you in different conditions. Do you have a furler? If so, practice sailing with a reefed main and a partially furled jib. Then, a reefed main and full jib. etc., etc., etc. until you've exhausted the combinations. In any event, you should know how to reef your mains'l. Good sail balance is what you're looking for here. That makes it easier to hande the tiller.

Edited by - on

steve25
1st Mate

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USA
27 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 17:29:55

Yes I do have a furler. Which makes it easy to adjust from the cockpit. I've tried a double reefed main and a reefed jib, and that seems to work fine. Just wondering what the experiences are from some of the senior members. Much easier to play with the jib than dance around the deck with the main.

Not getting any younger....

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 17:31:29

Generally, in order to sail to windward on the jib alone, the jib should be an overlapping jib - 120 or 130%. If all the sail area is forward of the CLR, the boat won't want to sail to windward. When sailing to windward, the principle purpose of the mainsail is to push the stern to leeward. That keeps the bow pointing to windward. The jib tends to counteract that force, pulling the bow off the wind. When those two forces are in balance, the boat sails efficiently. If you remove the mainsail, and if the jib is not overlapping, then all the driving force is forward of the CLR, and the jib pulls the bow to leeward. It's very difficult to get it to sail to windward.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2010 : 16:01:52

35k - 50k ? ? OMG

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