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New sails being ordered... a few questions

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sailingchefs
1st Mate

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USA
28 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/05/2010 : 12:07:40

Hi All!
I'm ordering new sails for my recently acquired '84 C-25 (SR-FK). I have not yet sailed the boat, nor any other C-25. The new sails are coming from Kelly-Hansen in CO. They sold me a storm jib a few
years back that seemed very well made, and was very inexpensive.
After pricing a new main and furling 135 with Ullman, Doyle, HK,
North, an Asian loft etc., Kelly Hansen was almost $1000 less with 10%
off 2 sails and free shipping. This includes 6.5oz Dimension Polyant
Dacron, all their standard features, + emblems, sail numbers, 2nd reef, draft stripes, sunbrella, cunningham, alloy headplate, luff rope, on and on... Any feed back on their products/services would be greatly appreciated as well.
The boat will be sailed on The Gulf of Maine, and as far South as maybe Block Island. She will be moored in Little Harbor, New Castle NH.
There are only a couple of nagging questions left before we finalize the order:
Do we want a grommet or a strap & ring/s for the cunningham? And if we go with a strap & ring, which side of the sail should it be on? Or should it be a strap with two rings through a grommet? Does anyone have a pic of their cunningham control line set up? There is only a ten $ difference; more for the strap & ring.
Same with the reef points (2 ordered). I've heard that a strap with a ring on each end through a grommet is easier to use because its easier to get over the bunched up sailcloth and on to the ramshorn. Any opinions or pics? How long should the strap be?
The other question I haven't fully satisfied myself with is the choice between a 135% genoa and a 150% genoa. The tracks/cars go almost all the way to the transom, and I've heard that these boats sometimes carried as much as a 170-180% genoa, so I was considering the 150, but I'm also concerned that I wouldn't get much use out of those last few percent, and sacrifice sail shape when partially furled and visibility to leeward from the cockpit. The normal winds we sail in are 5-15 knots.

Thanks for reading and in advance for your collective wisdom.

Glenn & Tom

S/V Sonnet II
'84 C-25 #4213
SR FK Trad.
Little Harbor NH

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 12:20:57

Not an expert but here are my thoughts. But you get what you pay for

Get the grommet -- less to fail.

I bought a 135% for my 250 but, I'd suggest getting a better feel for the sailing conditions and your boat before deciding. If you have the option, sail the boat with the existing sails (obviously assuming they exist) and see what you think. If you find a lot of very light wind days, then a 150% or larger may be the right choice but I'm guessing that won't be the case.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 12:57:05

Glen & Tom

I went through the same decision tree when i bought my 25/tr/fk. I sail on Long Island Sound with much flukier wind conditions. As I recall, the consensus of the novice sailors on each coast (versus lake sailors) was the 135 was a more versatile sale -- especially if with a roller furler (note the racers all seem to like the 150). I went with the 135 and have not been disappointed. yes, sometimes I could use more sail, often I am reefed but it works well. I do, however, have a tall rig, which is a larger sail. All that said, unless you are racing or very experienced I would start with the 135. Get used to the boat and then at some future point add sail inventory.

regarding the main, I went with Cunningham and a second set of reef points. Why? Because the price difference was negligible vs adding later. I have never used the second reef point but have used the Cunningham.

Welcome to the fleet!

Edited by - on

sailingchefs
1st Mate

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USA
28 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 13:40:21

The other suggestion I've heard is to have the clew of the genoa cut higher than normal for visibility. Anyone tried this?
Please post any pics of cunningham controls, I haven't seen how this should be rigged on the boom.

Thanks again, -Glenn & Tom

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 14:16:42

My cunningham is a grommet in the sail. I have a line led aft for the cunningham. The line goes through the grommet and is tied to a u bolt on one side of the mast. On the other side it goes through a turning block on the mast, then through the mast plate block, and back to a jamb cleat that can be winched.

Most of the time you just want to pull the cunningham an inch or two, not all the way down to a reefing hook (that would be like putting in the flattening reef).

The purpose of the cunningham is that draft moves aft in the main sail as the winds increase. You move it back forward with halyard tension. When the halyard is max tight, you can then add a little more tension with the cunningham. You want the max draft 30 to 50 percent aft. Too far forward and the boat becomes hypersensitive to pointing angle and stalls all the time. Cunningham moves draft, flattens sail, especially the bottom.

For winds of 5 to 15 knots I'd go with a 155 sail on your roller furler, and have a 110 sail you can put up on 20 knot+ windy days.

(Keep in mind I have 2 155s, 145, 135, 125, 110 and 60) hank on. I use the 155 99% of the time.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2010 : 14:35:57

If you tell the sailmaker you want a cruising genoa, you'll get a somewhat higher clew than with a racing genoa. If you want to race a standard rig, you probably want a 150/155 genoa. The 155 is sometimes the designation for the deck-sweeper (lower clew), and 150 the higher clew. I had a roller 130 (didn't race) and considered it to be the ideal compromise--easy to handle, decent visibility, and good performance from 5-15 kts. In the upper-teens, rolling it up a little didn't degrade the shape as much as would a 150 rolled to the same size.

Edited by - on

Jmurfy
Navigator

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USA
176 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2010 : 18:39:46

What is the manufacturer recommendation for best price/quality for a main and a 135% furling headsail. I have an 85' standard rig fin keel and a kid in college.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2010 : 19:27:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jmurfy
 What is the manufacturer recommendation for best price/quality for a main and a 135% furling headsail. I have an 85' standard rig fin keel and a kid in college.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't know about the manufacturer, but I was pleased with my purchase from [url="http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15"]National Sail Supply[/url]

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2010 : 19:35:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [quote]Originally posted by sailingchefs
 After pricing a new main and furling 135 with Ullman, Doyle, HK, North, an Asian loft etc., Kelly Hansen was almost $1000 less with 10% off 2 sails and free shipping.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The off-the-shelf C25 main sail and a 135 furling genoa from North sails are about $1,440.00.

Edited by - dlucier on 01/11/2010 19:37:39

sailingchefs
1st Mate

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USA
28 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 10:27:13

Thanks for all the input! Between this forum and SBO, how could we go wrong?
We had a bit of trepidation about K-H Sails after one post re: their BBB rating of F, until I found that it was caused by ONE unresolved complaint. What are the chances it was the guy who posted about it?
It still seems to come back to economics in our situation right now. @dlucier quoted North at $1440; my quote from Eric Baldwin at North in Freeport ME was $1775.00 before any upgrades, options, or shipping/taxes were added. The quote from K-H includes an extra reef point, alloy head plate, 2nd top full batten, cunningham, insignia, numbers, draft stripes, luff rope, and matching genoa Sunbrella, mainsail cover, and tiller cover plus free shipping. Almost enough to make a fella add a full set of 6 stay covers and turnbuckle boots for $39! Still under $1600...talk about instant gratification!
Here in New Hampsha, we are lucky if we get 3-4 months of decent (you can talk a friend into joining you) sailing weather a year. These new sails will be unfurled, best case, 30-40 times a season. While it may be short-sighted to expect lasting quality and performance from a new loft in the Rockies, for this kind of $, we'll take one for the team and give them a try. If they stink, you'll read about it here first! I'm betting K-H reads this stuff, and won't let that happen. (If you google K-H today, you'll find this posting in the first page or two.) Meanwhile, we'll have a couple of years to save our nickles and let the economy improve so we can buy more sails from a big name loft if they don't work out. We still need a full set of instruments, electronics and nav gear, and a hundred other (expensive) little goodies. Onward and upward!

Now to research installing an electric bilge pump. If it's not in the archives, you'll hear from us again soon. Thanks again, Glenn & Tom

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 10:58:00

I'm on the verge of buying new sails myself. At first I had decided on a hank on 155 and a new main but now I'm starting to think about the roller furler I already have that's brand new and not installed. I'm thinking of rigging it more for cruising now, I get all the racing I need on other boats. I'm looking at this local outfit for my sails, I've met Bill and everyone in the yacht club raves about his sails.

http://www.gussails.net/

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 11:55:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sailingchefs
 It still seems to come back to economics in our situation right now. @dlucier quoted North at $1440; my quote from Eric Baldwin at North in Freeport ME was $1775.00 before any upgrades, options, or shipping/taxes were added. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The prices for sails from North Sails Direct is cheaper than if you order it directly through a loft. Last season I purchased a new genoa from North Sails Direct after first getting a more pricey quote directly from North's Portsmouth, RI loft.

[url="http://www.northsailsdirect.net/CatalinaSails.htm"]North Sails Direct[/url]

You mentioned K-H uses Sunbrella for the genoa UV protection...Sewn on?

It's personal preference of course, but I prefer Dacron UV genoa leech and foot covers as they are not prone to cupping like sewn on Sunbrella/canvas due to shrinkage/stretch depending on the weather (hot, cold, wet) and the weight of Dacron is considerably less. (Lofts generally use a 4-5oz Dacron for covers and Sunbrella covers are around 9-10oz). The Dacron may not last as long as the Sunbrella, but since I'm not in the water year round and not near the equator, it isn't much of an issue. The NS genoa I just replaced was of unknown vintage (15 years or more?) and it had a dacron cover that was still good when the rest of the sail shredded in a blow.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 14:37:45

A dock mate at my marina says the Maine coast is interesting and beautiful, but there are frequently foggy conditions in the summer. He has a big sailboat with radar. So I wonder if you've been out of the local waters in other boats in your area.

It's exciting getting new sails, that's for sure. I'd think the 135 is plenty of sail for the bays and coves where you are. A small jib, like a storm jib, is good insurance if you're caught in high winds. You can't really roll up a 135 to make a functional storm jib.

Asking local sailors about the frequency of extreme conditions - no wind at all, or summer squalls and thunderstorms, will give you the info to sail safely at all times. I have been surprised how different the sailing conditions are in the different coastal regions I've visited. It's called "local knowledge", and it's important to gather.

Welcome to the Forum! Have fun on your boat!

Edited by - on

sailingchefs
1st Mate

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USA
28 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 17:48:26

"It's exciting getting new sails, that's for sure. I'd think the 135 is plenty of sail for the bays and coves where you are. A small jib, like a storm jib, is good insurance if you're caught in high winds. You can't really roll up a 135 to make a functional storm jib."

So, by way of explanation, this isn't my/our first boat in these waters. I had an O'Day 222 for 3 years, and last summer, a can of worms Hunter 26.5 WK that we worked on ALL summer, launched in Sept. and wrecked/totalled on her maiden voyage!
Sonnet IS however, the first boat I've had with a furler. You guys will know this cold, but fill me in: How, if the furling 135 won't make a functional storm jib, can I attach and use a storm jib at all? I believe there's an extra halyard, but I've never had any experience with rigging a storm jib with a furler in place.
I have a friend with a sweet new Beneteau 393. (A big sailboat with radar) We use his genoa furled way in when the wind gets too high. What problems will I encounter trying to use our 135 the same way?
The fog here can be daunting; we sailed up to York Harbor in a pea souper 2 years ago. Short of installing radar, I use a reflector, an automated timed horn through a PA hailer, and frequent periods with the motor off to listen. I hope to have an Iphone soon. I've read about an AIS app that shows the position of other vessels...we'll see how that works... -G.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 18:02:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">he quote from K-H includes an extra reef point, alloy head plate, 2nd top full batten, cunningham, insignia, numbers, draft stripes, luff rope, and matching genoa Sunbrella, mainsail cover, and tiller cover plus free shipping. Almost enough to make a fella add a full set of 6 stay covers and turnbuckle boots for $39! Still under $1600...talk about instant gratification!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Aren't these sails made in Tiawan?

Edited by - on

sailingchefs
1st Mate

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USA
28 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 18:56:58

As far as I know, they're made in Colorado, but I will certainly ask...

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 19:46:15

National politics asside, as far as quality and "usability" where the sail is made is not an issue, how it is made is. If the loft has happy customers, then you will be happy with the sail, and, yes, new sails are VERY nice. You will very much appreciate the furler, especially if the usage is occasional vs weekly racing. The key thing is to enjoy the boat and get out and use those sails -- wherever they are from!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2010 : 21:20:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sailingchefs
 ...I have a friend with a sweet new Beneteau 393. (A big sailboat with radar) We use his genoa furled way in when the wind gets too high. What problems will I encounter trying to use our 135 the same way?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There are varied opinions on this... In higher winds, I favored my 130 over my main--reefing the main before the jib, and at some point (maybe 20 knots) dousing the main entirely, rolling the jib down to 80-100, and firing up the iron genny. The shape is not ideal, but it provides some drive and stability. Make sure your furler is also intended for reefing--some aren't. (By the way, the boat sails very nicely on the full genny alone in 15-20.)

But my primary strategy was not to be out in that stuff. The C-25 can sort of take it, but is not intended for those conditions on the ocean--it's fine on an inland lake. There's just not enough basic mass and stability for handling big seas unless you're into thrill-rides and nobody is counting on you coming back. Again, some people will disagree with me... Maybe it's because I'm OLD.

Net: Forget the storm jib--you can roll down the genny... but check the weather report and marine forecast before you go off Cape Ann.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:34:02

The more I think on this the more likely that I'm going to have the roller furler installed when they take the rigging down for the bottom job. I have a 135 set up for this that came with the boat, I fear that won't be enough for the light winds of summer. How hard is it to switch a sail on a roller furler? I think mine is a CDI?

Edited by - PCP777 on 01/13/2010 10:54:42

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4018 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 09:20:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But my primary strategy was not to be out in that stuff. The C-25 can sort of take it, but is not intended for those conditions on the ocean<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree completely. I have found the sea conditions to be the limiting factor with our boats. Waves crashing over the bow and getting soaking wet isn't fun to me. Time to go home.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 09:26:37

About a storm jib...

Dave is right, that you don't need a storm jib; you need to avoid storms.

But if you are cruising down to Cape Cod and there are no "hurricane holes" to anchor in when the wind picks up to 20-40 knots, and you have an engine problem, then you need to keep the boat under control in the big waves. There is a special storm jib that wraps around the rolled up jib with a sleeve. That's one thing you could use in that emergency. Here is a link to the ad online: [url="http://atninc.com/gale.html"]Gale Sail[/url]

I bought my boat and found an apparently useless, funny, little storm jib in the sail locker. Only after reading about worst case scenarios on this Forum did I unpack the thing and then start using it when the wind piped up over 20 knots. Now I love hanking it on the forestay in moderate and high winds - I'm not racing, and it makes the blustery days really relaxing for me to cruise around my local rivers and the bay. Who woulda thunk!

For example, one cloudy fall day a friend came from out of town to visit, and we wanted to sail around in the evening, anchor out, and head back in to the marina in the morning. With a 25 knot steady breeze it might have seemed crazy, but with the storm jib alone we sailed at hull speed over to a nice anchorage and had a good time.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 09:40:32

Another story...

After 6 months of owning my boat, I got caught in a thunderstorm with a leading 50-75 knot "downburst" and a heavy downpour lasting about 20 minutes, then a trailing downburst. I happened to ride it out under bare poles. The waves on the bay rose to about 5 or 6 feet.

A few hundred yards away a dad with a bunch of teenagers were swimming off of a 35 foot sloop. When the storm hit, he quickly covered the main, rolled up his furler tight, got the swimmers out of the water and into the cabin, and he motored along towards shelter with furled sails. After about 10 minutes his genoa started unrolling and when it was all over his jib was torn into 5 or 6 pieces. He neglected to go forward and tie extra lines around the furled jib.

No one could tell there were downbursts coming - it looked like an average rain cloud from the water.

After that I learned all about anchoring, too. If I had been prepared to anchor in the 25 feet of water where I was, I could have relaxed in my cabin, like I should. I'm ready for that one now.

Edited by - on

sailingchefs
1st Mate

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USA
28 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2010 : 09:48:55

Thanks! That Gale Sail is exactly what the doctor ordered! I'm going to send in my existing storm jib for a retrofit soon. -G.

Edited by - on

T_Hamer
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 08:55:45

Dear Catalina Owners:

My name is Toby Hamer and I am the Director of National Sales and Marketing for Kelly-Hanson Sails.

I appreciate the lively discussion regarding our line of sails. I have also had the pleasure of speaking with Glenn (Sonnet II) regarding his purchase of new sails for his and Tom’s boat.

Please allow me to set the record straight on a few items that have been discussed as I prefer to avoid the spread of rumors that are unfounded or untrue.

1. Our sails are NOT built in China, Taiwan, Vietnam or anywhere else in Asia for that matter. We have full quality control over every sail we build and distribute. We are headquartered in San Diego and our distribution center is located in the Denver, Colorado area. I am based in Denver and personally inspect each lot of sails that are built prior to sale. I have sailed my entire life and worked in manufacturing and distribution throughout my career.

2. Our prices are the lowest in the industry for a few reasons. North, Quantum and Ullman have massive advertising and promotional budgets in addition to sales offices located throughout the world. This is a pretty expensive proposition and the money has to come from somewhere. Simply put, it comes from its customers. We also build in volume. Instead of building one Catalina 25 mainsail at a time, we do a minimum run of ten sails. We save on fabric, hardware and labor costs. Finally, our profit margins are lower than anyone. Instead of making a boatload on each sail, we sell in volume.

3. I saw one post from a sail maker who inferred our sails are built from polyester seconds and leftovers. This is absolutely ridiculous. All of our sails are built with premium, first run Dimension-Polyant polyester and Contender nylon for our spinnakers.

4. The statement “you get what you pay for” is a broad generalization. It is certainly truer today than ever. However, North’s cruising sails are built in Sri Lanka. Ullman and Neil Pryde; China. If you were to remove the tack logos from our sails, you would be hard pressed to figure out how they are of any lesser quality. However, compare our sail side by side with a discount loft and the differences are marked.

5. Our company is not new. We have been in the design, construction and distribution of sails for over 20 years. We have changed our business model to adapt to the ever changing industry and decided to add a direct channel approximately six years ago.

6. We stand behind our products. I don’t know of another loft that offers a three year warranty on materials and craftsmanship and a best price guaranty; and more importantly, a satisfaction guaranty. Simply put, if you are not satisfied with your sail when it arrives, simply return it for a full refund.

7. We offer two different solutions for headsail UV protection. The least expensive path is a white sacrificial Dacron cover. 80% of the furling jibs and genoas we sell have this. The only downside is the Dacron may need to be replaced prior to the end of the sail’s life. A Sunbrella UV cover is sewn on. The material is made specifically to stand up to most climates including harsh UV rays. It is available in just about every color of the rainbow and will generally last the life of the sail. Cupping can occur after a number of years but this will occur with a Dacron UV cover as well. For the average cruiser, there is no noticeable effect on performance.

Glenn and Tom are clearly pleased with our pricing and I have no doubt they will be ecstatic with their new sails. In addition to our huge inventory of in-stock sails, we can also build custom mainsails, headsails and spinnakers to your specifications at a price that can’t be beat.

I’d welcome any calls and/or e-mails regarding our product line. When you have a chance, please visit our website at www.kellyhansonsails.com.

Sincerely,

Toby Hamer

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 09:20:14

There you have it. Nice to have a rep come to the forum.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 09:52:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by T_Hamer
 Dear Catalina Owners:

My name is Toby Hamer and I am the Director of National Sales and Marketing for Kelly-Hanson Sails...

1. Our sails are NOT built in China, Taiwan, Vietnam or anywhere else in Asia for that matter. We have full quality control over every sail we build and distribute. We are headquartered in San Diego and our distribution center is located in the Denver, Colorado area. I am based in Denver and personally inspect each lot of sails that are built prior to sale.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gotcha. So where are they built? (Just curious...)

Edited by - on

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