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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

What is the draft of the rudder.

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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/12/2009 : 18:44:44

As I understand it the rudder is not a "Kick up" rudder.

If the outboard is fixed and you steer by the rudder, what is the draft of the rudder.

I am going to look at a Catalina 25 swing keel tomorrow and the owner said the outboard does not have a steering handle and he uses it fixed in a straight astern position and steers by the rudder. I thought the motor would give you better steering.

My question then is what is the draft of the rudder. I would think running across the bottom with the rudder would damage it. Although the bottom is sand.

Please answer as soon as possible.

NCBrew

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

mlg3733
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2009 : 20:28:35

The rudder is about the same draft as the swing keel in the up position, maybe a couple inches longer, you would not normally run accross the bottom without hitting with the keel first, normally...
You steer under power with the boat tiller.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 07:21:46

A previous owner converted Pearl,s rudder to a kick up; it's kind of a clunky, heavy affair, but I haven't found a 1,000 dollar bill lying around to buy a nicer one. It is useful. The boat can be steered more easily with the motor at low speeds (minimal water flow over the rudder) if you add a tiller to the motor. Kits are available, but I don't know the cost.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4291 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 09:27:04

I wing keel draws approx. 2'-10" and a fin keel 4'-0". My guess is the rudder draws approx. 3'-6".

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 09:36:34

He must have cockpit-mounted controls and a motor intended for wheel steering... I do believe the stock rudder is a tiny bit deeper than the raised keel--right around 3'. You could make a pratice of not raising the keel 100% while under way in order to protect the rudder. I don't think anyone here has reported having the rudder ripped off.

Catalina Direct has a [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1415"]kick-up rudder[/url] for the C-25... You know what B.O.A.T. stands for...

Most of us steer only with the rudder when under power, and center the engine such that there's no effort required to steer a straight course. We'll sometimes steer with the engine and rudder when maneuvering in tight quarters around a dock. But the rudder/tiller makes much easier steering under way, and turns the boat quite effectively.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/13/2009 09:39:37

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 09:50:03

To end this guessing on the rudder I went to the basement and measured from the bottom of my rudder to the waterline stain and it came out to 34 inches. This is on a balanced rudder.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 10:11:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 To end this guessing on the rudder I went to the basement and measured from the bottom of my rudder to the waterline stain and it came out to 34 inches. This is on a balanced rudder.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">His probably isn't the balanced one. But that would be exactly the WK draft and a couple of inches below the raised SK.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/13/2009 10:13:55

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 11:28:44

NCBrew,

Well, rudders are something I know a little about: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=814&title=Building+a+Sailboat+Rudder

I happen to have my old rudder out in the shop. Let me go measure it... I'll be right back.

This is a stock rudder from a 1982 swinger. The rudder extends 2'10" below the waterline.

Here's what I do with my boat. I never sail or motor with the keel completely retracted. If I am in skinny water or trying to get close to the shore, I might raise the keel halfway up. I figure I've given myself as much draft as is really needed, while giving me the option to raise the keel if I find myself on an "unmarked shoal" (wink,wink, nudge,nudge). Leaving the keel down at least halfway also protects the rudder, pintles and gudgeons.

You'll hear many comments about the maintenance of a swing keel as a drawback to the design. While there is certainly maintenance to do, it is mostly easily done (except replacing the pivot pin). The tradeoff to the extra maintenance is extraordinary flexibility in exploring shallow waters and "off the path" gunkholes. It also allows the boat to be more easily trailered. Here on the middle Chesapeake, where shifting shoals and thin water abound, I love my swing keel.

Over the winter, I am going to make a connecting rod between the rudder and the outboard. I agree with others that underway, having the motor amidships and steering with the tiller is the way to go. Maneuvering in the marina at slow speeds and especially backing into the slip is really made more manageable by having a steerable motor.

As to your last question, I think running the rudder across the bottom while underway would likely tear the bottom gudgeon out of the transom, rip the pintle out of the rudder or snap the rudder blade itself. A 6,500 pound boat at 4 knots running aground is in the neighborhood of 48,000 Newtons. And that's a lot of fig newtons!

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 17:31:05

Tom:
Thanks for all the info and to everyone else. I checked out the URL for building a rudder and as soon as I get time and it is summer I will ancher and go overboard and do some measuring and I may make a rudder 1 inch shorter than the draft of the fully retracted swing keel.

Thanks again to everyone.

I am going again to take another look at the 1977 Catalina 25 and reevaluate the bow pulpit stantions. I think I can remove the pulpit and fill the holes and redrill them with a little extra support underneath in the forward birth.

What is a good compound for filling?

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 20:14:21

First, drill out to a slightly larger diameter, and then use a bent nail in the drill to route out a quarter to a half inch of the plywood core between the deck and the inner liner. Then put some tape under the holes and fill them with epoxy thickened with microspheres or chopped glass fibers--all available from West System in any chandlery. After the epoxy is set up, you drill holes the diameter of the bolts through the filler. This gives you a very strong base while protecting the plywood core from water intrusion. Then bed the pulpit bases with polysulfide (Life Caulk), tightening only lightly, and let it cure for a week. Then crank down the nuts to compress the gasket you've created. You'll have the most seamanlike pulpit mounting job in the marina (or maybe the state)!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/13/2009 20:20:21

Tom Gauntt
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204 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 21:33:15

NC,

As usual, Dave gives great advice. I would add this step as well: When rebedding any fitting (stanchion, pulpit, cleat, winch, etc.) and water intrusion might have been an issue, I do everything Dave mentions. I also add one step. After routing out the core with a bent nail (a keyhole router bit works well too), I tape the hole from below and pour acetone in the hole if moisture is a concern. Acetone flashes off very quickly and some chemist can tell you why, but molecularly, acetone readily combines with water and it (and the now bound water molecules) evaporates very, very quickly.

I use Collodial Silica as my thickening medium.

Rebedding is as necessary as any other maintenance function. Over time, sunlight, temperature changes, bangs and bumps all degrade the seal under deck fittings, stanchions and pulpits probably as much as any other fitting except the cleats. You can certainly re-bed the bow pulpit. It will be immeasurably easier with another person. I would urge caution if there is delamination or sponginess around the pulpit bases. All these things can be fixed, but at some point, it's not worth the effort... there's another boat out there without those problems.

Here is a wonderful primer on fiberglass repair from WEST located here: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/

Here is a good article on hole repairs from WEST: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/repairing-machined-holes-in-fiberglass/

Good luck!

Edited by - on

TractorJohn
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2009 : 23:26:45

Tom, I connected my motor and tiller several years ago, what a great improvement, (no more three handed steering in close quarters in reverse.) having the motor turn the boat allows for manuevering without making way. BTW I gave up trying to fashion a solid rod and instead used cable and blocks just like the old 50's style run abouts. The whole install took about one hour after spending a season thinking about it.

[/quote]

Over the winter, I am going to make a connecting rod between the rudder and the outboard. I agree with others that underway, having the motor amidships and steering with the tiller is the way to go. Maneuvering in the marina at slow speeds and especially backing into the slip is really made more manageable by having a steerable motor.

[/quote]

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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USA
3398 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2009 : 04:13:58

I sail in the upper Potomac River and it characteristically has shallow water outside of the channel markers in some areas and the river banks in others. My rudder seems about the same draft as the wing keel. I ran aground only once and that was during the first month I owned the boat when I was not use to the river bed and my depth finder was not working. Since then, I installed a fishfinder with mounting the transducer inside the hull. A depthfinder is a must where I sail....but having one, then I can easily judge when to make my tacks and I never have had a grounding since except...I have occassionally hit a log or something and that usually happens in the middle of winter ! Luckily, I never sustained any damage from those occasional hits.

The one time I did run aground, the river bed is soft mud. I first noticed my speed tailed off and then the rudder also semi-stuck. The big concern is that since the rudder is about same depth as the keel, the rudder when it becomes grounded or hits something, the gudgeons are at risk of coming loose. Luckily, I have not had that issue. The wing keel acts sort of like a Danforth anchor and digs into sand or mud. I was in about 2 1/2 foot of water. I had time to approximate it with my hook pole since I was not going anywhere for awhile. I ran aground at low tide and came loose about an hour or so later. Meanwhile, there was this annoying small sailboat that kept sailing around me...probably just to rub it in !! After that one time, I have come to see others get stuck in about the same place...just north of the Wilson Bridge near Alexandria, VA. The other favorite location is near the Washington Sailing Marina - They have a narrow long channel that has to be negotiated to gain entrance...running outside the channel markers in that area....depths can go down to a foot and if one comes close to the wood pier that sticks out from the south side of Reagan Natl Airport....I have seen mud there at low tide...there use to also be 2 shopping carts that became visible at low tide...No shopping cart figure shows up on my fishfinder...only fish. In the upper Potomac River near Washington, an approximate 3 foot tide is something to be reckoned with along with debris that comes down river mainly after storms.

As far as steerage with rudder vs outboard, The only times I use both to steer is when I am leaving the finger slip and when I back into the finger slip. Both are doable with just the rudder but I find it most helpful to be able to use the outboard along with the rudder for steering when I back into the finger slip. I wind up making a sharp turn when backing in and so that extra control comes in handy. Is it necessary....probably could adapt without using the outboard but so far, I always use the both when backing into the slip...mainly because I have finger slips opposite my own and so the ability to make a sharp turn is beneficial utilizing the outboard.

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/14/2009 04:32:18

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2009 : 06:26:36

Thanks for the info Larry.

The problem in running aground in my area of Albemarle Sound is the fact that we do not have a measurable astronomical tide. The tide here is caused by the wind so if you run hard aground at any time you may be there for a few days. After crab season ends (Around late November) there is not much boat traffic.

I once had the genny sheet wrapped around the prop shaft on my 34' Hunter in early January and I went overboard to get it off. The water temp was 37 and I thought I was going to have a heart attack. I was alone and no one around.

I was 45 years old then and not too smart. I am 70 now and I would sit there till someone came along. I have a cell phone and would not jump into the water in January.

Thanks to all for their great advice.

NCBrew

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