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Do I need a smaller jib sail?

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5353 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/17/2009 : 15:36:41

When I bought Passage, it came with a main and genoa. The jenny is mounted on an excellent furler and in big blows, I've shortened the main and unfurled only part of the genoa not to get overpowered.

Some have said that partially unfurling the genoa results in a bad sail shape for the jib. I see their point as the virtual luff (of the partially unfurled sail) does not have the correct shape.

So, do I need a trisail or storm jib as well? While I don't have a separate forestay to hank it onto, could I just add a halyard at some point 2/3rds the way up the mast or would I also have to add an outer stay?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 16:24:34

Arguable opinion from the resident $+!nkp*++er... The storm trysail is a replacement for the main when the going is really rough. Like the storm jib, it is for the blue-water sailor who has no place to hide. The C-25 is not for that sailor or that situation--it needs to go hide when those conditions are imminent. And on that small a boat, running around on the foredeck in a serious blow is a dubious plan. Your furler gives you some good options without that.

Your foresail shape is pretty good down to about 2/3 of the sail, IMHO (having owned it). Below that, it loses some shape but still can be kept flat enough to help drive you through a blow. If you can sail off the wind to a hiding place, drop the main and go with the reefed genny alone. The genny gives you more sail area down lower than the main (so less heel), and drives the boat more effectively. If you're in danger of a lee shore, start the engine, wrap up everything, and beat it.

If you want to go out where you'll need to play with a storm trysail and jib, you want a 36+footer.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 17:00:25

Bruce, your main with a single reef in plus your sail rolled up to a 110 or smaller should be good up to about 20 - 25 knots. If you're a novice, that much wind will feel like a hurricane.

I go sometimes where you can't hide and so I have a main with a double reef and carry a 60% storm jib.

Where I live 30 knots is a lot of wind we don't see but a couple of times per year. Double reefed main with 110 jib can handle it sailing around the harbor. God help you offshore.

Above that you get into the range I bought the storm jib for. Emergency survival sailing in a C25. Maybe survive winds to 40 knots.

You never want to find yourself in a situation where you would need a storm trysail. In that case I'd drop the main and proceed under storm jib alone. I don't carry sea anchors nor Jordan drogues. I do watch the weather like my life depended on it.

People have survived 50 and 60 knots in C25 in thunderstorm conditions but usually have been driven ashore or blown out to sea out of control.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 19:44:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Some have said that partially unfurling the genoa results in a bad sail shape for the jib. I see their point as the virtual luff (of the partially unfurled sail) does not have the correct shape.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your so overpowered you need to furl your jib why do you care what your jib shape is? Surely you're already at hull speed. The object is to take control of the boat.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 11/17/2009 19:45:29

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 20:37:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The object is to take control of the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Flatter sails have less power, and a partially furled genoa can't be flattened as much. To much power is less control.

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Renzo
Admiral

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621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2009 : 20:47:43

As the others have said you don't NEED a smaller sail. I have a storm jib that I have used on a couple of ocasions in winds up to
35 mph. With a double reef in the main and the storm jib the C-25 performed very well and maintained a comfortable angle of heal during a 4hr sail across the lake. Of course I did have to go up on deck to hank on the storm jib, but I did it early (before the wind got too bad) and I'm used to being on the foredeck because I have hank on sails. If you decide to add a storm jib to your boat I don't think you need to run a second forestay. A friend of mine has a storm jib set-up that uses a wide sleeve that wraps around and slides up his furled genoa. Maybe if he reads this he will chime in and tell you exactly how it works. (How about it Glen feel like sharing some of your secrets)

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 06:56:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The object is to take control of the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Flatter sails have less power, and a partially furled genoa can't be flattened as much. To much power is less control.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It is always amazing how many sailors do not understand that a relaxed or deep pocket sail is a powerful sail and that most sail controls are there to depower the sail and provide more control in high wind.

...And you cannot pinch or feather to stay flat with a baggy small sail. As I said in the regretted mods thread, I wish I had never put a furler on my boat; I never enjoyed high wind again.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 07:31:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 ...I have a storm jib that I have used on a couple of ocasions in winds up to 35 mph. With a double reef in the main and the storm jib the C-25 performed very well and maintained a comfortable angle of heal during a 4hr sail across the lake. Of course I did have to go up on deck to hank on the storm jib, but I did it early (before the wind got too bad) and I'm used to being on the foredeck because I have hank on sails.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bruce is on Long Island Sound, where 30 knots of wind rapidly creates 4-5' steep chop. Some might enjoy wrestling with sails on the foredeck in that--not I.

BTW, the more common conditions on his end of the sound (where I also used to live) are 0-5. Unlike in Kansas, he's talking about a big front coming through--something the weather service usually predicts several days in advance. I guess I should drop out of this discussion--I stayed at the dock or went back to it on those days. Up to 25, I often sailed on just the genny and mains'l cover (with a flattening reef, of course, in the mains'l cover

)--sustaining close to hull-speed on a reach.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/18/2009 07:38:38

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 08:54:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
A friend of mine has a storm jib set-up that uses a wide sleeve that wraps around and slides up his furled genoa. Maybe if he reads this he will chime in and tell you exactly how it works. (How about it Glen feel like sharing some of your secrets)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Be glad to guys. First off in wind conditions above 30 knots (and you will at some point of time find yourself there) I prefer a storm sail to a furling rig. I find I have better control, then I would have with a mostly furled in sail. With your furling sail, as you furl it in the foot moves further off the deck. This will affect the center of effort and increase your heeling. Others can describe this condition better, but the point is, in high winds you want your sails foot close to the deck. You will need a spare halyard to hoist the storm sail. I have the CDI furler which has its own jib halyard built in. With this set up you don’t need to use your original halyard, and it becomes your spare. When dealing with a furling rig, you have two choices on securing the storm sail. You can simply hoist it with out hanking the luff to anything, or use a sling. A sling (the sleeve that Renzo referred to). is made of a section of sail cloth long enough to reach from the lowest to the highest hank on the storm. It is made wide enough to (some what) loosely wrap around the fureled sail. Webbing straps are sewn to the outside of the sling, across its width. These straps are spaced at a distance that matches the spacing between the hanks on the storm. A “D” ring is sewn on at each end of the webbing straps. The rings are for the hanks on the sail to attach to. I have a short line that is tied to the tack on the storm (a painter). This keeps the storm about a foot off the deck. The head connects to the spare halyard, and each hank on the storm is connected to the sling as it is hoisted. The storm should have its own set of sheets ready to go. The normal sheets that are attached to the furled sail will need to be eased and secured in such a manor that will allow the sling to be raised over them. And of course you need to tie a strap around the furled sail so it remains furled. Like all Hail Mary conditions, it is best to set up the boat before your in the thick of it.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 08:56:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bruce is on Long Island Sound, where 30 knots of wind rapidly creates 4-5' steep chop. Some might enjoy wrestling with sails on the foredeck in that--not I.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The conditions on lake St.Clair, where I sail are similar. The chop can build rapidly to 3-4 feet and 5+ foot waves are not unheard of. That's why I said I reefed and hanked on the storm sail early,I'm no hero. And besides did I say I enjoyed it

But seriously if you're commited to a passage and a blow comes up,a storm jib is a good tool to have to help you cope. Some people say just drop everything and turn on the motor, which is ok if the motor starts and dosen't get swamped by the waves. Personally I have more faith in the storm jib.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 09:46:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
he's talking about a big front coming through--something the weather service usually predicts several days in advance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What Renzo forgot to mention is that the Great Lakes never bothers to give you much warning.

You can be an hour out in blue skies, then a front (with no warning from NOAA) will be on you in 20 minutes. I don’t look for these conditions, but I don’t sail in a bubble either

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 11:44:38

I sold my 60% storm jib to Jim B. Thought I needed it sailing Lake Superior and got it free as a conditon of the purchase of my new C25 in 1988. Over time I found that a 110 and at least one reef in the main should cover the worst weather a day sailer or weekender will encounter. If you plan on anything longer, with longer periods between safe havens, two reefs in the main would be helpful.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 12:43:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 ...Over time I found that a 110 and at least one reef in the main should cover the worst weather a day sailer or weekender will encounter. If you plan on anything longer, with longer periods between safe havens, two reefs in the main would be helpful.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and IMHO a 130 (which Bruce has) rolls down to a decent 110. If it has a little more power than a hanked-on 110, that power is still down low and the top will twist off more with the sail partially rolled if the cars are left where they were. Substantially reducing the main (2nd reef) is more important for control in heavy conditions.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/18/2009 12:46:06

Renzo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 17:25:36

I've done it on St Clair during a race around the bouys with two burly crew, because I had to; but not on a cruise with the admiral or single handing.

Edited by - Renzo on 11/18/2009 17:26:29

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/18/2009 : 21:18:09

You never know what's going to set off a spark, but this was one question that did.

I watch the weather with a microscope before I go out and have nonetheless, on occasion, been caught in bad conditions which were not predicted, or not predicted soon enough.

Case in point: first year with Passage my wife and I planned to overnight about 20 miles from our home port: from Stratford to Branford. Weather Service predicted 10-15s from the NNE with gusts to 20. No sweat.

We would be beating so I thought we'd be going at a pretty good clip. I shortened sail and unfurled the jenny about 1/2 way.

Coming south down the Housatonic River, we zoomed on 135 degrees true. With favorable current and winds from our port quarter, we flew at 7+ kts.

Once we got down the river and made our turn to 60 degrees, sustained winds were about 15, but the gusts were reported at up to 35 kts. During gusts, apparent wind veered further forward (from the east), so we luffed quite a bit.

I let out the main until she almost luffed and furled the genny up to less than 50%. We heeled down to 15-20, but quickly recovered and shot ahead. During lulls, the wind went back to NNE, so I hauled in the main and unfurled to get the boat moving ahead again. Then another gust blasted us at 35 kts.

This kept up for about 3 hours and was getting rather tedious. Nice part about it was we were less than a mile or two from shore the whole way. With the wind blowing offshore, waves and chop were minimal.

It was very slow going and a lot of work, so we decided - lets start up the iron genny. We doused the sails and motored close to shore watching the rocks and reefs, then up into the inlet for the marina where we'd be spending the night. Once there, we enjoyed dinner at the restaurant, and the company at the marina.

Next day, winds had settled down sufficiently, and we had one of our better days of sailing together.

Had we been on the LI side of Long Island Sound (lee shore), that would have been an entirely different story. With an 12-16 mile fetch, the waves, the breakers and the chop would have been horrendous.

In this case, glad we were "Lucky" . . . . .

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