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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

average can be good

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Merrick
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USA
192 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/18/2009 : 15:45:34

Came across a couple reviews of Cat 25's and they were less than enthusiastic...average construction, average performance, mediocre at best it seems. These were old magazine articles. This is the biggest sailboat I've owned or sailed so I have no comparisons.
So how does the C25 really compare to similar sized boats?

1981 #2555 "Aero"
sk/sr
Coosaw Island, SC

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2009 : 16:03:55

OMG -

You could set off a riot with this statement. A few points about the C-25.

The hull is very thick. A sad story -- one member's boat went through Hurricane Ike which mostly destroyed the boat, but he had to cut up the hull to dispose of it, which he said was extremely tough and thick, and it took him forever to do it.

Frank Butler, the designer put enormous thought into the cabin layout (as well as the poptop), like he did with all his designs. It is one of the most ample layouts you will find in a boat of this size. The cockpit is 6 feet long, and quite ample.

I'm certain others with experience with other small cruiser/racers will be able to let you know why the C-25 was, and continues to be, an outstanding value.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2009 : 16:07:50

I guess I don't know the scientific answer to that but if the size of the fleet 20 years after the last one was built (and some around 30 years) stands for anything, I'd say they're pretty good at what they do. There aren't too many other manufacturers with that kind of track record.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2009 : 18:18:30

For many years, Frank Butler refused to buy advertising in sailing magazines. His reasoning was that he'd rather put his resources into building better boats than in buying advertising. He believed that his boats would sell themselves if they represented a good value. As a result, the sailing magazines refused to ever mention Catalina, unless it was in a critical light. At the same time, Catalina was, by far, the biggest manufacturer of sailboats, and it's competitors were jealous of it's market share and spread false rumors about it's quality of construction. In about the late 1980's, Catalina bought Morgan Yachts, which did a lot of advertising. Catalina began advertising, both for Morgan, as well as for Catalina, and the sailing magazines finally began to treat Catalina much more favorably.

Catalina enjoys tremendous owner loyalty. When owners are ready to move up to a bigger boat, they have a strong tendency to buy a bigger Catalina. You can buy a better boat than a Catalina, but, IMHO, you won't find a better value. If you doubt it, ask the owner of any C22, C25, C27, C30, C35, C36, C38, etc.

I raced my C25 for many years, and can attest to it's ability to compete with much more expensive boats which are more highly regarded for their racing ability.

Those old articles should be read in light of Catalina's history, and then disregarded. They weren't written to enlighten people about Catalinas. They were written to strong-arm Catalina into buying ads in magazines.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/18/2009 18:47:41

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2009 : 19:21:16

I don't know whether any other builder has built over 6,000 of a single model of 25-foot cruising sailboats over a 13-year period, but to do so I'd say you have to develop and maintain a reputation. Could it be that Hunter's new models every few years are an indication that their existing models are of dubious quality or their designs become unfashionable? Who knows. Catalina has always built more traditional designs and rigs, with higher quality hardware and stronger layups. The experts hold boats like the Pacific Seacraft Dana as the standard below which, for professional pride, they will denegrate other boats of that size. C-25 can't match the "quality" of the Dana, but they have more room (for families), can outrun the Dana (for racers), have totally adequate quality for coastal cruising and daysailing, and you have always been able to buy half a dozen or more for the price of a single Dana.

And as Steve notes (and I can attest from several good friends), Catalina has a very loyal following that suffers, as many of us do, from 3-foot-itis, and keeps coming back to Catalina! One couple I know well (and originally taught to sail on my Sunfish) went from a C-22 to a C-27 to a C-30 to a C-34, and have been very active in the Long Island Sound Catalina Association. They're convinced! Another couple with a Hunter 240, whose mast came down in their slip, decide to look around.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2009 : 22:48:07

Hey Steve, ya musta meant C34, not C35, which is a C350 anyway, and all the other bigger Cs. We had a C22, C25 and now our C34. Safety and being able to work on your own boat is what sold us. Ever try to trace a wire or a pipe in a bendy toy? Simple, rugged, no tricks or frills, what you see is what you get and for maintenance being able to see is really important. Oh, and they sail!

Edited by - on

Peregrine
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830 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2009 : 23:19:19

One of the strongest reasons to have this forum open to anyone and everyone on the web is to let non-owners hear about our boats.
Only owners can let others know how great our boats are.
This forum provides information for owners looking for solutions to problems but as it helped me find a a boat to buy it lets potential buyers know what a value our boats can be.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2009 : 03:57:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 Hey Steve, ya musta meant C34, not C35, which is a C350 anyway, and all the other bigger Cs. We had a C22, C25 and now our C34. Safety and being able to work on your own boat is what sold us. Ever try to trace a wire or a pipe in a bendy toy? Simple, rugged, no tricks or frills, what you see is what you get and for maintenance being able to see is really important. Oh, and they sail!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I didn't mean to omit C34 from the list. I was actually thinking about your C34 when I typed the list, Stu, but the thought didn't get transmitted from my brain to my fingers. I never sailed one, but there are so many C34s that it must be a good boat! Ditto the C42, et al.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/19/2009 04:06:35

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2009 : 05:06:38

IMHO The Catalina is the best production boat made. The design and construction is a great compromise in fiberglass. A great design is all about the result that makes all aspects work well together. It is part of the reason owners are quite enthusiastic.
I've seen a lot of other boats neglected, filling with water, moldy, and abandoned, and they "disappear". Now that we have side looking sonar, I wonder how many designs we will start finding on the bottom.

We could start playing "Name That Boat". . .

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2009 : 10:50:23

The boat is average. Windows leak, stanchion bases leak, the boat is heavy - plywood cored, wires are glassed in the deck, wiring is non marine grade and is a very substand installation, the interior is not teak. However, the production run of 6000 boats is not average. My boat is 30 years old, been in salt water the whole time, and is in great shape, that's not average. This association is not average. Performance is above average for a 25 footer. Longevity is above average. Factory support, parts availability, and help from an active owners association is well above average.

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2009 : 08:07:24

Reviewers should look at the production numbers and longevity and ask why? Owner's reviews mean more and I read many before buying this boat. One thing I noticed though, is most people like their boats, no matter what they are. (sailboats anyway)
The real question is how well does a boat work for it's designed purpose? C25 has proven it works quite well.
I guess the conclusion is it has to be pretty good in all areas compared to similar boats. Then it must be a better package overall than most, since it outsold them all.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2009 : 16:20:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 The boat is average. This association is not average. Performance is above average for a 25 footer. Longevity is above average. Factory support, parts availability, and help from an active owners association is well above average.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Jim, I agree with all but your first statement. Sure the windows leak. Look what you have put Indiscipline thru since you have owned her!

That aside, I have seen a lot of other boats and fell our Catalina's are at least a couple of notches above, on average. Yes there are some better boats out there but they are the exception and as you and I know, will cost you an arm and a leg, maybe even 2.
I guess I look at the entire package when I say this. There are a lot of cheap boats out there with average quality in my eyes but Catalina would not be in that crowd, IMHO.
Steve A

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2009 : 17:33:00

What I was trying to say is that there are some relatively minor known flaws. There is also a body of knowledge (here) on how to fix them. There is nothing really serious like the keels fall off (J-80), severe blistering (Valiants), or rounds up out of control in a 8 knot breeze. The fit and finish is average (no teak parquet floors).

If you guys could just see what Steve and I went through rounding Isla de los Todos Santos in very rough 7 foot seas, then surfing back to the finish line under spinnaker at speeds up to 8.8 knots there would not be much of a question about how tough a 30 year old C25 can be.

And that was 65 miles downwind from home in Mexico with no Vessel Assist (or any other outside help) available.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 07:59:27

To para-phrase a slogan currently running the airways...."there's strong, and there's Catalina strong". Great coastal cruiser but has it's limitations. As long as you understand what they are, and maintain the boat in a seaworthy fashion, it'll take you just about anywhere you want to go.....well, almost.

Edited by - on

keeldad
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 08:52:29

Old, tough and "average" is good. At least that's what I told the wife.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 10:23:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Merrick
 Came across a couple reviews of Cat 25's and they were less than enthusiastic...average construction, average performance, mediocre at best it seems. These were old magazine articles. This is the biggest sailboat I've owned or sailed so I have no comparisons.
So how does the C25 really compare to similar sized boats?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"The Catalina sails like a some kind of tubby old slug, might as well watch someone else sail on TV for all the fun that thing is."

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 11:15:36

The Catalina 25 performs comparably to other vintage boats of the same comparable size like the J 24, Cal 25, Capri 25, etc.

My race-prepped C25 can outperform most all non-race prepared boats 30 feet and under and most boats in the mid 30 size as well.

The Catalina 25 sails to its rating in mixed PHRF fleets 175 and up. 150 and up is tough to win (and that's what I usually have to deal with).

In my experience the boat performs best in a mixed PHRF fleet broad reaching under spinnaker with medium winds. Just enough wind to keep the sport boats from planing. My boat reaches under spin very well - down swell reaching speeds (with 15 knots apparant wind) in the 8 knot range are possible. The boat also performs well upwind/downwind in a mixed fleet in ultra light winds and flat seas.

Upwind I become competitive again in winds around 25 knots - mainly because I can reef and change jibs and the ultra race boats get way overpowered. Most around here don't even have reef points nor do they carry a #2 jib.

What kills us is upwind in steep wind waves or a 2 - 4 foot steep chop in light to medium air. The C25 has heavy ends, likes to pitch, and just doesn't have enough water line to race 36 footers in these conditions.

I can't make my C25 point quite as well as other (bigger) race boats but then I have used race sails. A local Cat 27 with new mylar jib and main always outpoints and outperforms me. He races with a 3 HP outboard that they take off and store below, also. I have a custom inner jib track and use a barberhauler but that gets the pointing up but slows the boat.

I think the C25 performance is hampered by the lack of a proper traveller, but it's not really worth the expense of fitting one (too many tradeoffs - pop top, companionway).

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 11:31:36

Jim, have you ever thought about installing my traveler mod? It doesn't give you much travel on that inadequate bar, but it definitely helps especially going to weather.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 12:32:13

I did not see their value when they were in production. Later their place as one of the best of the genre was indisputable. Neither the S2s nor the ODays that seemed better at the time have aged as well, not even the J boats.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 13:14:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 "there's strong, and there's Catalina strong".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Al, I like that!

Jim, after all of your accolades, how can you say average!

You better watch out next time you are out on one of the long voyages of yours. She just might want to get even.

Frank, you have captured the essence of our boats.

Steve A

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5352 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2009 : 16:53:35

As I said, "them's fightin' words" around these parts. Lies, lies, all lies.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2009 : 09:41:14

maybe its me, not the boat, that is not average!

I'll look into the traveller mod...

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2009 : 11:47:56

Most sailors don't need a boat that is bluewater capable. We wouldn't want to pay the cost of such a boat, which could easily cost 3 times as much as our C25s, we wouldn't need such a boat to sail inland lakes and bays, and we wouldn't be happy with the performance of such a boat that is designed for sailing in trade winds, and not for light air lake or coastal sailing. Catalinas are designed and built to be used the way the overwhelming majority of sailors really want to sail. We want boats that can keep up with similar boats in our club's racing fleet, and we want boats that have comfortable accomodations for weekend use and for short-term cruising. We like our boats because they do all those things so well.

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