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Wheel chain keeps losing tension

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windsong
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318 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/08/2009 : 05:04:52

The chain on my wheel steering keeps jumping sprockets. This occurs when there's a lot of windhelm, then suddenly, POP!, it slips. The last time this happened, about 3 months ago, it jumped three times before I got back to my slip. I re-centered the chain and tightened chain tension to the point where the wheel was noticeably more difficult to turn. Over the last month, I've noticed that the wheel has become steadily easier to turn. Then on Sunday, POP!
So I'm back down to the boat today to remove the compass, re-center the chain and re-tighten, but what is going on? I've got a call into Edson, but I'm wondering if any of the wheel-owners in this group have had a similar issue.

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - windsong on 07/08/2009 05:05:56

moserd
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Response Posted - 07/08/2009 : 05:13:45

I had the same problem originally on my 2005 WK. Once I adjusted the tension according to Arlyn's advice I no longer had the issue. This is what I did:

Turn wheel all the way to one side
Adjust the 'loose' cable tension.
Turn wheel the other way
Adjust the other 'loose' cable.

This seemed to work for me.

Make sure to lubricate the vertical 'pin' that is inserted in the rudder arm (where the eye bolts are mounted).

Good Luck.

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 07/08/2009 : 08:15:05

Catalina is famous for installing the steering system improperly, so be sure and check that the starboard steering cable comes through the bracket and is connected to the lower end of the rudder steering arm pin. Let me say again what has already been said, make sure the pin is well lubed and free to move. A lot of people ended up with bent eye-bolts because it ceased up.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/08/2009 : 14:19:31

This thread has some interesting info. I searched for "pull/pull" in C250 archives.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=11923&SearchTerms=pull/pull"]pull/pull steering cables[/url]

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/11/2009 : 09:34:12

Randy, thanks for that link as it was interesting to reread both the process of sorting out the problem that was breaking the eye bolts as well as the attempt to use my rudder extension arm with the pull/pull existing cables.

I noted that the thread ended without a final report about the testing that Russ performed using a prototype extension arm I sent him. If I recall correctly, Russ and I both agreed that Whelsoff's conclusion that in the end, an open wire conversion was the better and cheaper route to go than a hybrid of the pull/pull system and one of my custom slotted rudder extension arms.

It also was apparent that correcting the eye bolt placements and keeping the pin lubed well went a long way to providing reliable and reasonable operation from the stock steering system.

Regarding lubing the pin, no final word was given about what lube Edson sent. I'd suggest not using WD-40 but rather grease but otherwise follow Edson's recommendations or a grease that they offer.

Last... I shipped the last open wire conversion kit that I had on hand yesterday to an owner of a '95 model push/pull system. Request for the kits are winding down with maybe three in the last year and two of them were to owners of the early push/pull system that still hadn't been upgraded after more than ten years of operation. I'm thinking the eye bolt placement and lube issues of the pin has solved the failure issues experienced with the pull/pull owners.

For those who might find it interesting, I made about forty three kits with about 2/3rds of those going to retrofit the original push/pull system and about 1/3 the pull/pull.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/11/2009 : 10:27:25

I'm one of those three in the past year who replaced a push/pull system with Arlyn's open wire kit and I'm loving the change.

I also added an Edson wheel brake and that is a nice addition too.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/11/2009 10:27:57

windsong
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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 07:41:12

Thanks, Randy, for posting the link on the eyebolt failure issue. VERY interesting reading. My sympathies to those who learned to use the backup tiller under the circumstances of a failed wheel steering system. This sport sure can keep you on your toes!
Arlyn, I'm impressed with your solution. I will tighten the chain on my 2009 system per your advise (throw it over to one side. Tighten. Over to the other side. Tighten. I never got advise that clear from Edson) and see how it goes. Meanwhile, the emergency tiller will be handy. :)
An added bonus of reading the thread was that I learned that rudder "wobble" is not unique to Windsong. I've been meaning to post a question about this to the forum as that wobble is dang annoying, and worse, actually caused two nuts (the ones inside the gas tank locker) to come completely loose from the bolts! As usual, the forum is way ahead of me on this question. I will do as you suggest, throw it hard over and lock the wheel. Up till now, I've been locking it in the center position.

Edited by - windsong on 07/13/2009 07:44:44

SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 14:08:15

do you also have a seconed nut to back down on the adjusting nut ..maybe you could trade that for a lock nut..that might help

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/13/2009 : 15:12:52

Something I've wondered, is it possible for the rudder arm to invert?

I've tried to picture this in my head and given a rudder arm centered, I don't think it can invert but hard over to one side, I can envision it able to invert (when not connected to the rudder of course).

I can't imagine Catalina installing all of them wrong. I'm thinking they tend to invert on their own while the rudder arm is disconnected to the rudder and they simply get pinned to the rudder inverted during commissioning.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 07/13/2009 15:13:41

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 07/24/2009 : 12:41:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by moserd
 I had the same problem originally on my 2005 WK. Once I adjusted the tension according to Arlyn's advice I no longer had the issue. This is what I did:

Turn wheel all the way to one side
Adjust the 'loose' cable tension.
Turn wheel the other way
Adjust the other 'loose' cable.

This seemed to work for me.

Make sure to lubricate the vertical 'pin' that is inserted in the rudder arm (where the eye bolts are mounted).

Good Luck.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So here's a really dumb question:

WHAT/WHERE/HOW are you adjusting the "loose" cable?

Thanks!

Martin

Edited by - MartinJW on 07/24/2009 12:42:00

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 07/24/2009 : 12:46:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 The chain on my wheel steering keeps jumping sprockets. This occurs when there's a lot of windhelm, then suddenly, POP!, it slips. The last time this happened, about 3 months ago, it jumped three times before I got back to my slip. I re-centered the chain and tightened chain tension to the point where the wheel was noticeably more difficult to turn. Over the last month, I've noticed that the wheel has become steadily easier to turn. Then on Sunday, POP!
So I'm back down to the boat today to remove the compass, re-center the chain and re-tighten, but what is going on? I've got a call into Edson, but I'm wondering if any of the wheel-owners in this group have had a similar issue.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Michael,

I think that this happened to me a few days ago. (My boat is a 2008, but it was also built in the Florida factory, so I suspect we have similar set ups. Mine also has Edson wheel steering.)

A friend - who's never sailed before - was at the helm in moderate to light (10-15 mph) winds a couple of days ago, and I think he turned the wheel way too far and used too much force. I heard a couple of "pops" from the pedestal, I think.

I've never opened up the pedestal, but I think I better have a look.

Thanks for sharing this,
Martin

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/24/2009 : 14:02:22

The answer here is relative to the other answer about wheel noise at night. All cables stretch a little and will require adjustment after some use. Also check that the mounting bracket that the cables attach to hasn't bent inward. If it has, some have dealt with keeping the bracket arms spread properly by making a wooden brace to fit between the arms.

Then, tension the cables according to the following instructions.
<ol type="a"><li>Center the rudder.</li><li>Check to see if a spoke is near the top of wheel.</li><li>If a spoke is close, turn the wheel so that a spoke is straight up. This will get a leather lace to mark it as the king spoke. The reason is so that you can feel the rudder centered without having to look. </li><li>Now center the rudder using the adjusting eyes on the cables.</li><li>The cables will be slightly loose when centered, once the rudder is centered with slightly loose cables, move the rudder fully to one side and tension the cables firm. Remember when returning to center, there will be a little slack, this is normal.</li><li>If a spoke is too far when the rudder is centered to be positioned up, then the chain will need to jump the sprocket to get a spoke veritical. To do this, simply loosen the cables some additional amount and hold the rudder firm and leverage the wheel until it jumps sprocket to a point where a spoke is near the top with rudder centered. Then follow the above procedure.</li></ol id="a">
If the chain has jumped a sprocket... it doesn't hurt anything and there is no need to get inside the pedestal. Take the time to adjust a spoke vertical for the king spoke and mark it with a leather shoe lace... you will be very happy that the rudder can be felt centered because when your fighting with getting into a slip, your eyes should stay focused on what the boat is doing rather than diverted to check the position of the rudder.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 07/24/2009 14:06:11

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 07/25/2009 : 14:24:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I'm one of those three in the past year who replaced a push/pull system with Arlyn's open wire kit and I'm loving the change.

I also added an Edson wheel brake and that is a nice addition too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Although I have the latest Edson / Catalina pull/pull system, I was seriously considering Arlyn's open wire steering kit (mostly to take out the play in the steering and to give a little better mechanical advantage.) I got as far as e-mailing Arlyn about how to pay for this, but in the end I chickened out. I have yet to drill a single hole in the boat, and I'm completely freaked out about making some serious modifications.

So, Randy, how difficult was this?

How many major holes did you need to drill into your hull or deck to install this?

How difficult was it to install this with the existing pedestal?

Thanks,
Martin

Edited by - on

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 07/25/2009 : 14:29:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 

Last... I shipped the last open wire conversion kit that I had on hand yesterday to an owner of a '95 model push/pull system. Request for the kits are winding down with maybe three in the last year and two of them were to owners of the early push/pull system that still hadn't been upgraded after more than ten years of operation. I'm thinking the eye bolt placement and lube issues of the pin has solved the failure issues experienced with the pull/pull owners.

For those who might find it interesting, I made about forty three kits with about 2/3rds of those going to retrofit the original push/pull system and about 1/3 the pull/pull.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Arlyn,

Although I have the latest Edson / Catalina pull/pull system, I was seriously considering your open wire steering kit (mostly to take out the play in the steering and to give a little better mechanical advantage.) Are you planning on making any more of these, or are you out of this business?

You may recall that I got as far as e-mailing about how to pay you for this, but in the end I chickened out. I have yet to drill a single hole in the boat, and I'm completely freaked out about making some serious modifications.

So, how difficult is this installation?

How many major holes did you need to drill into your hull or deck to install this?

How difficult was it to install this with the existing pedestal?

Can this reasonably be done while the boat is in the water?

Thanks,
Martin

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/26/2009 : 12:46:51

Martin... I am currently out of kits and out of some of the stock needed but plan to have kits available again in Sept.

Installation isn't scary and requires only three mounting holes through the base of the fuel locker. The bolt heads and washers are bedded in to maintain a seal between the fuel locker and the aft compartment. The only other fasteners into the boat structure are four screws to mount the pedestal turning sheave assembly in the hole at the base of the pedestal. These are quite close to the hole found at the pedestal base and get covered by the trim boot that Catalina snaps over the pedestal base hole. So, there are no bolts or screws showing anywhere. BTW, the conversion actually hugs closer to the aft berth ceiling than does the original flexible cables.

The compass is removed to pull the chain and add some provided links (to enable the much better wheel to rudder leverage) that have the new cables attached but all that is pretty simple. The conversion can be done easily with the boat in the water. Installation is about 4-6 hours and is something that does not require a boat rigger.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 07/26/2009 12:49:34

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/26/2009 : 13:31:19

Martin, here is a thread that describes my complete installation of Arlyn's system. A year later and I am still very happy I made the change. I had the original push/pull system.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17937&SearchTerms=open+wire"]Installation of open wire steering[/url]

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 07/26/2009 : 13:38:14

Arlyn, put me down for one, too. I'll look forward to making the installation. Sounds like a big improvement.

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 07/26/2009 : 18:04:34

Do you have a marine head? If so the install takes a little longer do to required base modifications. Aryln's kit is still well worth it, or I would not have installed it.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Michael Hetzer"Windsong"2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984Myrtle Beach, SC

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC