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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Mast not perpendicular

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windsong
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USA
318 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/12/2009 : 10:18:31

My mast is tipped a few degrees aft. It has been like this for a while, maybe since the boat was commissioned last October. I have also been frustrated by wrinkles in the mainsail at the gooseneck that I can't seem to remove with either the main halyard or the outhaul. Now I'm wondering if the two issues are related.

I'm not sure how I would make the adjustment to bring the mast forward. I have a roller furler on the forestay.

Thoughts anyone?

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/12/2009 : 12:59:51

Michael,

The mast should be aft a little. The exact tuning is in the owner's manual.
The wrinkles might be caused by the topping lift.
On my C250, I didn't realize to I should loosen the topping lift after the main was raised.

Russ C250 #793

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/12/2009 : 13:18:32

Tipping the mast back is good. It improves pointing and increases weather helm. If it is 100% perpendicular you will have lee helm (bad). You balance the boat by tipping it back about 3 or 4 inches at the top. This is called "mast rake". Mast rake does not affect the shape of the sails. That is "mast bend". I'll bet you have a bow (like bow and arrow) forward in the middle of the mast. That is called pre-bend. That can cause wrinkles in an old main. Remove the bow by adjusting the lower shrouds. Tightening aft lowers will pull the bow out.

To truly get the main flat, I find I need to winch the halyard, tighten outhaul AND apply some cunningham. Cunningham is like a reef grommet about 6 inches up from the tack (where the boom meets the main). Tighten this to get the main really flat.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/13/2009 : 15:55:24

Here is how to set the rig on a C250.

You should have 4"-5" of mast "rake" which is the mast leaning back. You can measure this by taking the boom off and raising a weight using the main halyard. The weight should hit the deck about 4"-5" aft of the mast. This is the first thing to do when setting the rig on a C250. If you don't get the 4"-5" you need to loosen the forestay - a pain with a furler but you need to do it.

Then adjust the upper shrouds. Tighten them so that at shoulder height if you pull on the shroud with two fingers it will deflect 1". That is pulling with the two fingers, not your arm. Look up the mast to be sure it is not leaning to either side as you do the adjustments of the upper shrouds.

Now adjust the lower shrouds. They should deflect about 2" at shoulder height with the two finger pull. The lowers must be looser than the uppers or you will bend the mast forward - not good.

Finally tighten the backstay just so it does not interfere with the sail's leech. Do not overtighten it. The backstay is nearly unnecessary on a the C250 due to its modified B&R rig.

When sailing the uppers should always be taut while the leeward lower will dangle a bit loose.

I have found mast pre-bend to be an illusive thing on the C250.

This is how to do it. No loos gauge. Setting the rig on the C250 involves a degree of touch and you will gain more confidence with it as you do it.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/13/2009 15:56:08

windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 06/13/2009 : 16:53:25

Thanks! I've printed out your procedure. I'll keep it on the boat.

Edited by - on

willy
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422 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 05:13:38

Michael,
On my boat and on many 250's, the halyard for raising the mainsail is just a bit too small to grip properly in the rope clutch that holds it when you raise the sail. This can slip a bit...lowering the main a few inches after raising and causing the wrinkes you are describing. A good way to see if this is the problem is to:
1. make certain, after raisng the sail, that your topping lift is released, then...
2. put your main halyard on your starboard winch and GENTLY, (1 turn at a time), raise it to see if the wrinkles disappear.
If that is the case then the halyard is slipping.It can also happen if the line is the correct size but is older and the section where the clutch grabs it is worn. Mine was actually too small and I solved the problem easily by replacing the halyard with line that is the same diameter as the jib sheets. It was an easy task...I just put the new halyard end to end with the old one and started wrapping electrical tape tightly about 4" above where the two halyards abutted. I kept winding the tape tightly until I got to about 4" below where they abutted and then hauled the new line up using the old one. Took 10 minutes start to finish and the sail shape has been perfect ever since.
Good Luck!
Willy

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 07:26:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Tightening aft lowers will pull the bow out.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Wrong boat... The C-250 has just one set of lowers, in combination with swept-back spreaders that can create some pre-bend when the upper shrouds are tightened. Catalina calls for a small amount of pre-bend on the 250.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/16/2009 07:35:17

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 09:17:22

how did I miss that this was a 250? Disregard comments about mast rake and pre bend. That is for a C-25.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 16:09:05

Micheal,
I had issues with wrinkles in my main as well years ago. I followed a couple of the "Tips" in this [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=9507&SearchTerms=wrinkles"]post[/url] A combination of retuning the rig and a little more tension on the main halyard solved my problems. Since your boat is new I would work with adjustments before you start replacing things. If you suspect your clutch is slipping, use a sharpie and mark you halyard at the clutch when fully raised and check it at the end of your sail and see if the mark moved.

Speaking of marking the haylard, a little trick that worked for me was once I had enough tension on the main halyard to remove the wrinkles, I marked the haylard with a sharpie. This gives me a quick reference mark when I raise the sail. I have the reefing lines marked as well as the haylard for quick reference when I reef.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 06/16/2009 16:10:45

windsong
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318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 08:52:13

I finally got around to measuring the rake on my mast. It's 19 inches. I tied a hammer on the main halyard and it hit the cabin top 19" behind the mast. Yikes. So the first thing I need to do, apparently, is shorten the forestay in a MAJOR way. I have a CDI roller furler system. It's not obvious to me how this is done. Can anyone advise me?
P.S. This would seem to explain the wrinkles in the main at the gooseneck.

OK, since I posted this, I've read the CDI Furler manual. It appears that I need to remove the drum to expose the turnbuckle. Any advise before I tackle this project. I'm wondering too, how much I should loosen the rear stay as I shorten the forestay. I don't have a tension meter.

Edited by - windsong on 07/16/2009 09:45:09

KD4AO
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 10:22:54

I wonder if that is right, the C250 with a 110lb motor on the stearn sits in the water bow high. I believe that what Randy is saying is based on the boat being level in the water. Maybe he will weigh back in on this, I could be crazy.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 10:38:16

I would hope the boat is level in the water before adjusting the rake, also the drum on the CDI furler slides up after the retention pin is pulled. Word of caution have a second pair of hands to hold the drum up or a pair of vice grips. If it slides down it will draw blood on your hand or fingers. Nuff said.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 11:39:35

I'd bet the boat isn't level in the water.

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Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 12:04:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the drum on the CDI furler slides up after the retention pin is pulled. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You also have to remove the sail from the extrusion to allow the drum to slide up.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 07/16/2009 12:04:51

windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 12:12:20

Interesting question about the boat being level. Here's a picture taken in May that shows the rake. It's not the greatest pic, but if you draw an imaginary line from the top of the mast to the deck, you'll see that it would strikes a point WELL aft of the mast. Granted, we have about 300#s in the back of the boat. I've posted the picture larger than I would normally in order to make it easier to see. Am I nuts?

Edited by - windsong on 07/16/2009 12:17:29

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 13:20:15

It clearly shows that the boat is riding high at the bow. I have 200# of rock under my v-berth. I think Randy has more. Just to be sure, you release your topping lift while sailing, right? If not, that could easily account for the wrinkles at the tack of the sail. The boom/mast angle is less than the 90degrees that is on the mainsail.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/16/2009 13:20:47

windsong
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 13:40:30

John, Thanks for looking at the pic. I'm glad I posted it. Would you recommend that I put ballast under my V-berth until a level placed on the cabin top shows it is level? Then, and only then, should I measure my rake?
As for the topping lift, yes, I release it before raising the sail. For motoring out, as you can see in the pic, I raise it waaaay up to get it out of the way for better visibility.
I'll do a search in the archives on the ballast issue, but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 13:43:41

I have 275lbs of crushed rock (5 X 55lbs) bagged in the bow. Joe you do not need to remove the sail to raise the drum and access the turnbuckle on the CDI furler. I just upgraded to the ball bearings which required completely removing the turnbuckle and never removed the sail. I use a spring clamp to hold the drum up and another to hold the extrusion up.

Your picture also is at an angle so the mast against the backdrop of the building looks even more out of kilter. First, get the boat on her lines by adding weight to the bow. I don't think a level is neded. Then remove the boom and suspend a weight from the halyard and see what the rake is. I recently read an article that said to have the weight end up in a bucket of water at the base of the mast. This will dampen the normal swing the weight will want to take.

When we got Nautiduck the mast was raked too far back. I ended up loosening all the standing rigging, lifting the drum of the furler and tightening the forestay to get the correct rake. Always put cotter rings through the turnbuckle bolts when you are done!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/16/2009 13:46:02

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 13:49:16

Crushed Rock bagged and wrapped.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 14:29:53

You could test the theory by having 250 pounds of crew stand on deck near the bow.

The more I think of this, the more I think that mast rake isn't the culprit. Rake assumes that the mast is straight from bottom to top -- just "raked" or "tilted" a few degrees aft. If the mast is straight, the boom should be at roughly 90 degrees to it. However, if the mast has a bend in it, (somewhere above the boom) that would explain the sail shape problem. A bend could be caused by overtightened upper shrouds when compared to lowers, for example

In any case, before I made any significant changes to the forestay, I'd go through the rig adjustments described above after I get the boat level on her lines.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 18:33:44

Best I can tell with a straight-edge on the photo, the mast isn't bent. But despite the tilt of the camera, it appears the mast is raked significantly more than would be explained by the bow-up stance. The place to start is indeed getting the boat on her lines--then follow the owner's manual to tune the mast.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 07/19/2009 : 15:55:11

Thanks for all the advice. I've read all the threads I could find on this question of adding ballast in the bow of a C250, and I'm hungry for more info. I was looking forward to reading Arlyn's analysis of the issue, but alas, the link is dead. Can Arlyn (or anyone) post an active link, or lacking that, a copy of this analysis.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/19/2009 : 20:01:37

Here's one from Arlyn:

[url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/cause_of_weather_helm.html"]Weather Helm[/url]

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windsong
Captain

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Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 16:25:00

Well, the fun goes on. I got the boat pretty much level using crushed stone, a full water tank, and my new 25' of anchor chain. Mast rake measures 12" (down from 19"). Noticeably tipped back. I removed the drum on the roller furler to discover that the forestay turnbuckle is completely at the end of its adjustment. I cannot make it any shorter from there.
Help. What do I do?
Also, I have to ask, Is my boat unsafe like this, or am I merely sacrificing performance until I get this sorted out?

Edited by - windsong on 07/31/2009 16:28:35

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 18:09:05

Excess aft rake results in excess weather helm which makes the boat more difficult to control in strong wind. It will want to turn towards the wind. Not dangerous but a big pain. 12" is waaaay too much. I think you bought the boat new. Take it back to the dealer. Sounds like the forestay is the wrong length.

Also, are you measuring the mast rake with the shrouds loose? Make sure that is how you do it. That would eliminate the possibility that the upper shrouds are too tight and bending the mast aft. You want to measure rake with the mast straight.

Again, it sounds like the forestay is too long. Your manual should give the proper forestay length and the dealer should check this out.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/31/2009 18:11:25

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Michael Hetzer"Windsong"2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984Myrtle Beach, SC

Michael Hetzer
"Windsong"
2009 Catalina 250 WK HN984
Myrtle Beach, SC