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Newbie here with Catalina 25 questions

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MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:04:24

Hello all. Murphy here in South Carolina. I don't own a Catalina 25 but am on the hunt. Just saw one today on Lake Murray. 1984 w/Swing Keel, Tall Rigging, Pop Top, and supposedly very "rare" OEM bimini that snaps around the mast and pop top. The boat had a bare fiberglass floor inside. Tiny Bilge was full of water. Hand bilge pump with 5 gallon bucket sat next to bilge cover like pumping out is a regular routine. Interior wood trim had like a 6" water line around the inside like the interior had flooded at one time. Owner was asking $4,500 or best offer. I offered $4,000.00 and he wouldn't take it. I believe the boat to be in "below average" shape - though I know that is though my eyes.

I've read that Catalina 25's with Fixed Keel, Tall rigging are the most desireable.

My question is... what is the difference between tall rigging and standard? (This has probably been asked a million times). I'm heading out again this weekend to look at another C-25 that runs a "dry" bilge

. I look forward to conversing with the forum members here.
Sincerely,
Murphy Peoples

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:26:44

Murphy,
Welcome to the forum. Take some time to browse around the postings you'll find lot's of great information. I think you're right to keep looking although for an '84, $4500 might be in the ballpark. You'd be well advised to have someone with a bit of experience take a look. If you find yourself seriously looking at a boat, a professional survey is usually worth the cost. In the meantime, buy a copy of Don Casey's "Inspecting the aging Sailboat" you can probably find it at major bookstores and certainly at Amazon or some other on-line seller. (About $15.)

As far as the "very rare" bimini. I think he's referring to what is called the pop top cover for use while at anchor or docked and not whil uner way. Not rare at all. A bimini is something else entirely and it doesn't snap around the mast. It provides shade in the cockpit.

As far as the tall/standard rig question. The most common indication for wanting a tall rig is for use in light winds. If your winds are predominantly lighter that average, you might want a tall rig. But, I'd think a standard rig to be preferable for most. If for no other reason than standing head room in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 15:05:55

Welcome Murphy!

I mostly agree with John,

My understanding was that the Tall rig was for inland lakes where the stronger winds were aloft due to trees and whatnot. Open waters are for standard rig. Our boat is a standard rig, and we sail on a lake. We do fine. I wouldn't spend a lot of time sweating over the tall rig/standard rig question personally, although when I was shopping it was a big deal to me. I HAD to have a tall rig, I bought a standard rig and I'm winning races with it...

I don't agree with the assessment that the fixed keel is or ever was any more desireable than the wing or the swing keel. If I were shopping today, I would be watching for a wing keel, but really its personal preference. If you will be trailering, the swing is supposed to be easiest to get on the trailer. If you are racing, the fin keel allows you to point higher, if you are gunkholing or have a lake with a bottom full of tree-trunks, you may want a wing to reduce your draft.

I have never heard of an OEM Bimini from Catalina. What colour and fabric was it? If it was white vinyl then it is what John described above. I have one, he has one, everyone has one. They are a dime a dozen and rarely get used.

On a swing keel with a bilge full of water, he may have had the keel cable let go on him, then the keel comes down like a hammer into the trunk cracking the fiberglass. Something worth asking the seller about. This is a big job to repair. On the other hand, leaky windows and a lot of rain could also fill the bilge if left long enough.

I think walking away may have been a good choice. If I had a seller that was desperate to sell a sinking boat, I don't think I would have even offered that much.

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 16:57:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Murphy,
In the meantime, buy a copy of Don Casey's "Inspecting the aging Sailboat" you can probably find it at major bookstores and certainly at Amazon or some other on-line seller. (About $15.)

As far as the "very rare" bimini. I think he's referring to what is called the pop top cover for use while at anchor or docked and not whil uner way. Not rare at all. A bimini is something else entirely and it doesn't snap around the mast. It provides shade in the cockpit.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

John - Casey's Book has been on my shelf for a couple of years, and I own around 5 of his other books. Glad to read that I'm using the right references! Thanks!

Also - you're correct - it is a Pop Top Cover - with a C-25 logo - and he called it quite rare. Glad to hear it's not. Thanks so much for the guidance!
Murphy

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 17:12:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Welcome Murphy!

My understanding was that the Tall rig was for inland lakes where the stronger winds were aloft due to trees and whatnot. Open waters are for standard rig. Our boat is a standard rig, and we sail on a lake. We do fine. I wouldn't spend a lot of time sweating over the tall rig/standard rig question personally, although when I was shopping it was a big deal to me. I HAD to have a tall rig, I bought a standard rig and I'm winning races with it...
Prospector - I am thinking EXACTLY like you did when shopping for your Catalina 25. Your post has just made my selection MUCH easier. I'll stick to what I find. We'll be sailing on Lake Murray in SC, which is very wide and windy. Not much in the way of flukey light lake winds like I saw on Lake Chicamauga in Chattanooga, TN in another life.

I don't agree with the assessment that the fixed keel is or ever was any more desireable than the wing or the swing keel. If I were shopping today, I would be watching for a wing keel, but really its personal preference. If you will be trailering, the swing is supposed to be easiest to get on the trailer. If you are racing, the fin keel allows you to point higher, if you are gunkholing or have a lake with a bottom full of tree-trunks, you may want a wing to reduce your draft.
Again - you've guided my decision. I prefer to point as high as possible and heel over to haul the mail. My last boat was a Cal 2-29, and that thing could point like no tomorrow. I'll look for a fixed keel as our Lake is extremely deep.

On a swing keel with a bilge full of water, he may have had the keel cable let go on him, then the keel comes down like a hammer into the trunk cracking the fiberglass. Something worth asking the seller about. This is a big job to repair. On the other hand, leaky windows and a lot of rain could also fill the bilge if left long enough.
 I asked him this exact question, as I had done my research on the C-25's. The interior screams "I've nearly sunk" with it's water ring around all wood pieces near the floor. He said he'd never heard that before. But yet - he knew that his boat had had the "desired" change of the aluminum spreaders on the mast.

I think walking away may have been a good choice. If I had a seller that was desperate to sell a sinking boat, I don't think I would have even offered that much.
I'm so glad it didn't work out. I've found another one with a Standard Rig and Fixed Keel for the same asking price that seems to be in 3X better condition. All because I walked away from the sale. A good thing in this instance. And for me - the worlds quickest impulse buyer.... a miracle!

Edited by - MurphyPeoples on 05/21/2009 17:16:08

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 17:12:16

There should be no water in the bilge. I'd keep looking. The C25 is a very dry boat. There should be no water line like it had flooded once (the wiring could be very bad off). Run don't walk and find another. I wouldn't offer $1500 for a leaking boat that looked like it had been nearly sunk once.

Tall Rig vs. Standard doesn't make much difference. The tall is 6 seconds per mile faster. If it gets really windy, you'll be glad to be in the standard. If its super light 3 - 4 knots you'll be happy to have the Tall, or just fire up the motor. Tall rig mast is 2 feet higher and boom 1 foot lower. If you want to race look for a Tall Rig fin keel or swing keel. The wing doesn't point quite as high. On the other hand I race my standard fin and do well.

You were looking at the pop top cover which is not rare and costs about $500 new.

Edited by - on

Rich G
Navigator

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226 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 19:01:52

$4500 should get you a boat in good, structural condition that needs work, not something that screams, "I have problems." There are enough C25s out there that you should feel completely comfortable with your purchase. If something is nagging at you in any way, keep looking. The right one is out there, it just hasn't found you yet. I would also echo the advice to get the boat surveyed. You probably won't get any negotiating leverage out of it, but it will either fuel your lust for that particular boat (as was the case with me) or you'll save yourself the trouble of buying someone else's headache. Either scenario is worth a nominal price, IMO.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:29:25

Good winds, deep lake, keeping her in the water... Standard rig-fin keel. The sail plan is well balanced, the first reef is right for high teens and above, the boom won't get you upside yo head, and if you race PHRF, your handicap will make up for any possible tall rig performance advantage.

If you have choices, things changed over the years... In around 1983, a cockpit fuel locker was added, replacing a shelf in the port "sail locker", and the fin keel became encapsulated lead instead of cast iron. In about 1987, the swing keel was replaced with the wing, which drew only a couple of inches more. As Jim said, the wing doesn't point quite as well, but for people who want to trailer the boat or sail in skinny water, it eliminates some maintenance and "sinkability" issues. In 1989, the deck and cabin were redesigned, with a flatter cabin sole, more headroom, flush deadlights (windows), and subtle improvements around the cockpit.

Each of these phases affects the value of a used boat, although condition is also important. It sounds like you know what you're looking at... However, a professional survey is much more valuable than its cost, IMHO. If nothing else, the surveyor's moisture meter can detect problems in the plywood deck core that you probably can't find. And he'll give you a list of items to attend to, with their priorities. Many insurers require a current survey for older boats, so you might as well use it to your advantage by making it a contingency to the purchase--like a home inspection.

All the best in your quest!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/21/2009 20:34:15

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 06:18:04

Murphy,
Welcome to the forum! As you've no doubt realized, this place is a treasure trove of information with extremely knowledgeable people offering some truly great advice (present company excluded).

My quick story is this: I started looking a for sloop rigged sailboat in the 25 foot range. I looked at many. Some I would walk by on the dock and some I would spend an hour or two on and inside. It took about 8 months of slowly looking and cruising ebay, craigslist, the local sailing magazines, etc., but I finally found just what I was looking for: Catalina 25, swing keel, pop top that fit a narrow definition of needing work but was in good shape (no hull blisters or wet core).

The boat that found me had been well-cared for by a previous owner, but the current owner had let her sit unused for about two years. Outside, she was very dirty, teak was very weathered, no boom, no sails, a motor that might not run and a lot of marine growth on the bottom. Down below, she was very nearly pristine... a little mildew (from being closed up for so long), but clean and dry with all the pieces except electronics. I got her for $1000.

She needed work, which was something I wanted to do anyway, and I've spent some money getting her refitted and refurbished. New running rigging, new main sail, new roller furling jib, VHF and GPS, cleaned and reworked the gel-coat, updated electrical and plumbing, lines led aft, etc. It has been a project that has taken longer than I wanted (I had hoped to have her in the water by the Blue Angels show here in Annapolis for the Naval Academy graduation this week, but she's not quite ready), but it has also been a labor of love. I feel like I know every piece of that boat and that is reassuring. The answer to almost any question about Catalinas can be found be searching this forum. I am amazed at some the most obscure problems I have that have already been cussed and discussed here at great length.

Bottom line? As my dad always says, "Opportunity is when inspiration meets preparation." If you are looking to buy, shop around, be patient. Go rent a boat to satisfy that need to get on the water until you find your own. Have a good idea about what you want and what you do not. Eventually, the right boat will find you. And when that boat finds you, remember the answer to most any question can be found here. I would also highly recommend joining the Association... the subscription to "Mainsheet" alone is worth every penny!

Good luck,
Tom

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 06:21:31

One more point, a trailer will add between $1000 - $2000 to the asking price on these boats. I think it is worth having. YMMV.

Doing it again my package would be:
SR/WK 1987 or newer
Trailer
1 set of really good sails (race day)
1 set of cruising sails
Clean interior
Sureveyed
Local owner (who I felt comfortable approaching with questions after the sale)
priced around $8500 USD

Beware the details and read as much as you can here. I spent days last summer trying to polish/buff the hull and couldn't get these little ripples out of the finish. Called the PO to ask if he knew what they were from, and it turns out he was using poliglow on the hull. The ripples were from a poor application.

I think the Cal was likely more of a raceboat than the C-25 is. Not sure though as I am not familiar with their lineup. I know that I have a hard time pointing as high as the rest of th efleet, but I can make up the lost time in efficiency of the boat. Also I am pretty new to sailing and need to refine my technique. Have you had a chance to actually sail/crew a C-25? You may want to get on board as crew with someone to make sure the boat is the right design for you. Heeling hard is fun but doesn't produce results with these boats. You want 5 degrees of heel as your target. I have a hard time remembering that...

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2009 : 05:27:53

In this economy, you can probably buy a boat with the spare change found under your sofa cushions.

My story is similar to Tom's, in that I found a C25 that sat uncovered for a few years directly under a huge tree and the thousands of birds that nested in it. It was covered in filth, decaying leaves, thick moss, and a healthy layer of bird crap. It was so filthy I wasn't sure what color the deck was.

At one time, this boat had been well cared for by a PO who had done all the upgrades (spreader brackets, fore stem, balanced rudder, Harken furling,...etc). This boat also came with a nearly new outboard that looked like it just came out of the shipping crate.

Long story short, I got it for what someone might pay for a new outboard and all it needed was a bath.

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2009 : 08:27:58

Well, I've got to say.... I really enjoy the comradeship here on the forum. I greatly appreciate all the helpful insight. I'm meeting a seller for lunch tomorrow, and If I'm able to come away with a contract.... I'll post a picture here. I think you'll all be impressed with my "find".
Till then!
Murphy

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2009 : 11:16:47

Murphy,
Please contact me.
I have a nice '86 swing keel standard rig that you might be interested in.
I'm in Hilton Head.
My boat has the pop top with the enclosure you mentioned, a nice bimini, a nice engine with electric start and I don't have a water line inside.

I don't have a trailer, but you can find one.
If it stops raining, we can go for a sail.
You might be surprised the nice condition and good price I have.
Dave
843-422-0855
look at my web site
www.stblues.com

Edited by - ddlyle on 05/23/2009 11:50:47

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2009 : 16:18:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ddlyle
 Murphy,
Please contact me.
I have a nice '86 swing keel standard rig that you might be interested in.
I'm in Hilton Head.
www.stblues.com
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave - I sent you an -email!
Murphy

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2009 : 16:26:35

The $4,500 might be OK - depending on several big ticket items, including the condition(s) of: the sails, the O/B and the rigging - standing and running. If necessary, all could cost upwards of $5k to replace depending on many variables.

Edited by - on

tod
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2009 : 18:49:34

Murphy, I bought my 1985 cat 25 TR on lake norman and brought her down to lake murray this past winter. She is docked at Windward point club, just over the dam. She isn't for sale but I'd be more than happy to let you take a look and share my purchasing/refurb experience. send me a note it you're interested....

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 04:42:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tod
 Murphy, I bought my 1985 cat 25 TR on lake norman and brought her down to lake murray this past winter. She is docked at Windward point club, just over the dam. She isn't for sale but I'd be more than happy to let you take a look and share my purchasing/refurb experience. send me a note it you're interested....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tod - I greatly appreciate your offer, and I'd like to take you up on it! Please check your e-mail!
Murphy

BTW - All you guys on here are great. Thanks for the input.

Edited by - MurphyPeoples on 05/24/2009 04:42:40

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 08:49:23

I may be way off, but I think the "bimini" that snaps around the pop top and mast may be a dodger. I have one on my '81 Cat 25, although I have not deployed it yet. Given the 6" water line in the cabin I agree with the others that this could turn out to be a disaster. I would strongly recommend that if you find a boat which you are seriously considring buying you get a certified marine surveyor to go over it, and make the purchase contingent on that survey, which is pretty standard. If the seller balks at that, sail on.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 11:11:30

I agree that the "OEM bimini" is probably the pop-top enclosure--a common OEM option. I'm not aware of Catalina offering a bimini or a dodger for the C-25, and neither would "snap around the mast" as the enclosure does. No matter... he's sailed on.

I put a bimini on my C-25, and was considering having a wrap-around "windscreen" made to attach to the forward part of it, making it a sort of extended dodger. The center section would have had two zippers allowing it to be folded back so the pop-top could be lifted, or just for some air-flow.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 14:28:23

Another thought on the 6" of water... I looked at a boat last year that had the dreaded bathtub ring about ten inches up from the sole. Apparently, over the winter a relatively heavy snow storm/ice storm and fallen leaves clogged the scuppers in the cockpit. A heavy rain soon followed and water rose in the cockpit until it reached the coaming of the companionway and slowly filled the inside with water where it sat unnoticed for several weeks (the boat was on the hard). It was difficult to believe that much damage could be done to a boat sitting on jack stands. The electrical panel and the inboard engine were trashed, not to mention the mildew and water stains.

Edited by - on

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