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Wire vs Rope Gennoa Halyard?

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Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/21/2009 : 09:23:09

I currently have a '86 c-25 TR with Hood system SeaFurl 700 roller furling. I have had problems with the halyard wrapping on the RF (another topic) and have damaged the wire halyard. I have seen low stretch rope halyards advertised and wondered if this is advisable for this application? It sure would be easier to work with and be less likely to get seriously damaged. Is there a big reason not to use all rope? What are the pros and cons? I know you guys will steer me in the right direction.

Thanks!

1986 C-25 FK Tall Rig
"Blue Nose"
Mobjack Bay, Virginia

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 09:48:01

Wire halyards are archaic and should be replaced; the technology has moved on... several times.

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Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 10:29:21

If I replace the wire halyard how do you recommend swapping it out without stepping the mast or going up in a seat? The knot where the wire and rope connect is too large to pass through the mast head so the halyard will only pass through one way. I could try and attach a light line to the open end of the wire halyard and pull it through. Then attach the new rope halyard to the light line and pull it back through? How would you attach one to the other? Is there a better way? Also how much rope would you recommend fro a tall righ genoa halyard? 70-75'???

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 11:49:04

Tip the mast. you can keep it in the step, just tilt it down. If you can find a spot where the water is calm, and you can have the nose of the boat over land that is best. Let the mast down forward, and have it rest on the bow pulpit. That is how I install all my masthead instruments every spring. My wife and I can bring the mast down and back up and neither of us in over 170 lbs (she's barely 100, and she does all the winching)

The amount of rope you need will vary based on the mods done to the rigging on your boat, however for a starting point you can find the lengths of the original wire leads and ropes for each boat in the parts list which is in the "Manuals and brochures" section on the left of the screen. Basically you need double the length of your mast (30' X 2) plus enough to lead the line to wherever you tie it off with the sails down, plus a "fudge factor" I think its usually somewhere between 75 - 80 feet when all is said and done, but I won't be held to that number. My lines are lead through a deck organizer to the cockpit, and around a cleat.

Are your lines internal to the mast, or external? I don't see a very complicated re-running of the lines if the lines are external, but if your lines are internal, then you will have a more challenging time runnin gthe lines inside the mast. To do that wiuth the VHF cable, I just tied butchers twine onto the existing cable when I pulled the old cable out, and used that line as a traveller to run the line for a new antenna and masthead wind instruments. Butchers twine is cheap, comes in very long lengths, and is pretty tough for this sort of thing.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 12:38:06

I butt stitch new halyards to old and pull them through. Not tape, stitches.

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Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 12:46:24

Good Point - i forget who it was, but there was a book I read about a circumnavigation where a pile of rope was lost to chafe. the solution was to cut the rope,an dmove the chafe points, then butt stitch th eweakened rope to be the tail that never takes strain. If you did that you might be able to sve a bunch on new lines. I think I would just replace though. I'm a weenie when it comes to nice clean looking lines.

When I was shopping there was more than one boat I walked away from because of the green goo growing on the lines.

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Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 13:41:11

Is there a correct way to butt stitch (sounds painful - haha) or will any ugly old stitch work to hold it together?

In this case I will need to connect the old wire to the new rope halyard and pull it through. How do you do that? tape??

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Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 15:48:30

Blue nose,

I'm not sure of your rigging, but most C25s that have the wire to rope halyards also have smaller diameter sheaves in the masthead for the smaller diameter wire. I think some of the newer Sta-Set X line is pretty strong, even in smaller diameters, but you might want to check to see if your sheaves will handle the larger line.

I'm replacing my old wire halyards this week and ordered new sheaves from CD.

Just something else to think about.

Good luck with the butt splice... I hope it isn't painful.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 15:49:27

You can pull either direction because you can cut the line free from the wire, you may need to tie on a tail to make it long enough to reach. If you buy a nice halyard it will have a shackle on one end so you will need to pull the tail up and through. If you simply buy line and attach your own shackle after you reeve the line then the direction does not matter. Butt stitches are simply long stitches that go from a 1/4 inch up on one line to a 1/4 inch up on the other line. Push the needle through the new line, hold the rope ends together and go to your 1/4" spot on the old line and push the needle through again, come back to your first needle hole and go through again, that is one stitch. Now instead of going straight back up you go around the new line to a point 90 degrees around from your first hole, shove the needle through and proceed to complete another stitch, I usually do four complete stitches spaced around the halyard which is eight lines of thread.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 15:54:28

The best thing to do is to upgrade the sheeves, Catalina Direct sells them. Go to 3/16 and they are shaped different for all rope.

I suggest VPC 8 mm halyards at about $0.80/foot at West marine. Non stretch, much softer than Stayset-X and cheaper. For a Standard Rig with lines led aft to the cockpit you need 75 foot halyards.

When you are changing the sheeves, be careful, there is a little metal plate between the sheeves. Don't lose that! Catalina Direct sells that too (my original is at the bottom of the Pacific).

I'd change the pins, too. Mine got pretty banged up getting them out. Also sold by CD. Have plenty of cotter pins.

Mast is down, might as well check all rigging, install new Windex, install spinnaker block, clean sockets and change light bulbs on anchor and steaming lights. Check mast plate, install dinner plate for turning blocks if you don't have one.

You can do this job in the slip in about a day.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

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USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 00:49:18

Mast up. I replaced mine with rope (errr - my friend did it for me, who knows what he is doing) and he simply taped them with electrical tape.

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Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 07:17:31

I looked in the Catalina manual for my boat and it recommended a 5/16 rope halyard which I thought looked liked overkill. I bought it anyway for both the genoa and the main. I am a little concerned that it may be too thick to go through the sheeves but that is what the book said.

On my boat the knot and eyelet will not pass through the sheeve so I can only raise the wire halyard and pull it through from that direction. I plan on cutting the eyelet off the terminal end of the wire halyard and using heat shrink tubing to hold the hirw and new rope halyard together. Hopefully I will be able to pull it through the sheeve and then I will be in good shape. I want to avoid dropping th mast if at all possible since I have never done it and don"t want to pay to have the boat hauled. If all else fails I guess I could send someone up in a bosuns seat. Can that be safely done on these boats while in the water at the slip?

Any reason not to try the heat shrink tube?

Thanks

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 07:28:56

When I changed to all rope halyards, I discovered that one of the original sheaves was damaged, so I bought the kit from CD and replaced all 4 sheaves. I bought my halyards on Ebay from Milwaukee Rigging, both 78 ft. of 5/16" Sta-SetX for $.63/ft. plus s/h. Came out to about $150 total. 78 ft. is long enough to lead them back to the cockpit. I also have a tall rig. As JimB said, 8mm VPC also works. also, check out the prices at defender.com.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 08:07:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 I looked in the Catalina manual for my boat and it recommended a 5/16 rope halyard which I thought looked liked overkill. I bought it anyway for both the genoa and the main. I am a little concerned that it may be too thick to go through the sheeves but that is what the book said.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">5/16" won't work with your original sheaves, but as others have said, you might as well change them. You'll probably find the old ones are in bad shape from UV, wear and stress. If you're leading the main halyard back to a clutch (or plan to), the diameter needs to be compatible with the clutches. I went with 5/16" for reasonable handling, and it was just right for the Spinlock clutches I got.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/22/2009 08:12:15

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 08:49:27

I'm scratching my head here??? Maybe it is because I am dense!! haha The manual says use 5/16, why would the sheeve not handle that? Is it a case of it will work but not ideally or it won't go through at all. It seems that dropping the mast with roller furling is a big project that I don't want to undertake until next winter but I have to replace the halyard now. It would be easier to buy 1/4 or 3/16th than to drop the mast. It is sailing season already here. :o)

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 10:27:23

Because the wire runs on the sheeves, not the line; which makes my butt stitch method crap for you. (It has been a long time since I had the wire... it was the first thing I replaced on my 82.) You would need to cut the eye off one end and tape the wire to the new line. Cut of the eye that allows you to pull the direction you want. 1/4" line will work fine with the existing sheeves but your sheeves are probably hammered and should be replaced.

READ AND BELIEVE... dropping a mast on a Catalina 25 is nothing, it is trivial, it is something that some people do by hand a dozen times a season. You will not enjoy your boat if dropping the mast is percieved as a big deal. Three friends and you can do it in your slip with no problems at all.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 13:02:29

Depending on the sheave style in your masthead, you may or may not have to replace them to convert from wire rope to all rope halyards.

When I converted to all rope halyards, I was able to reuse my original masthead sheaves because they could accomodate the larger diameter (5/16") rope halyard (My sheaves look like the one on the far right in the picture). I did have to install additional spacers/dividers between the port and starboard sheaves (external halyards) to prevent the rope from jumping the sheave since it sits a little higher on the sheave whereas the wire rope sat down low inside the wire groove.

I've seen some wire sheaves that are quite narrow and could only accomodate the smaller diameter wire rope.

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hinmo
Navigator

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USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 17:48:35

We used 1/4 line. Can't say its been tested yeet, but looks quite functional/adequate.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 07:16:48

The original sheaves should accept 1/4" rope, but probably not 5/16". The problem you will likely find is that the wire halyards have been pretty rough on the sheaves. Last summer, I encountered a halyard jam with the main only partly raised, had to go up in a bosen's chair to release the main but couldn't free the halyard. We had to take the mast down (did it in the slip with 3 guys helping). It was then that I discovered the damaged sheave and decide to replace all of the sheaves and go all rope. If the jam had not happened, I would probably still have wire/rope halyards as I had replaced the rope when we bought the boat almost 3 years ago. In retrospect, I'm glad we went all rope.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/23/2009 07:17:58

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 07:47:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 ...I have had problems with the halyard wrapping on the RF (another topic) and have damaged the wire halyard...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Since you mentioned it, I had a Hood furler... On the front of the mast, there was a small block positioned slightly above the height of furler's swivel (sail hoisted). The halyard ran down from the masthead, through that block, and then angled out to the swivel. Once tensioned, the halyard kept the top of the swivel from turning with the bottom, thus preventing halyard wraps. My PO apparently didn't figure that out, so the forestay was bent and slightly untwisted up there. The surveyor explained it all to me.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/23/2009 07:49:31

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 08:40:04

At the risk of changing the discussion, the device you are talking about is a halyard restraint I believe. Mine does not have it but I have looked into it. I did look in the Hood Manual and the problem (halyard wrap) is being caused because the genoa wasn't being raised high enough which caused the halyard to be at less than a 15 degree angle to the forestay/foil. According to the Hood manual, the halyard needs to be at an agle between 15 and 30 degrees to the forestay in order to prevent halyard Wrap. Would have been nice if the PO had told me all this before I damaged the halyard. I have since raised the entire rf unit up six inches by shackle and also put a wire shackle on the genoa at the drum to raise the sail up. By raising both, I have significantly shortened the exposed halyard and forestay which increased the angle of the halyard to the forestay. I am hoping this will solve the problem. I will replace the halyard tomorrow as discussed above and test it. Hoping for success so I can sail this weekend!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/23/2009 : 14:07:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 According to the Hood manual, the halyard needs to be at an agle between 15 and 30 degrees to the forestay in order to prevent halyard Wrap.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Exactly--I'd say closer to 30. Then the question is whether you can get that angle without a restraining block. I'm not sure how you can.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 03:06:22

If I don't put some tension on my jib halyard, I'll get halyard wrap. The halyard doesn't have to be cranked down, just snugged up a little with a winch. Trying to tension it just by pulling on it gets it oh so close, but it needs just that little something extra provided by the winch.

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Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2009 : 04:37:02

Bite the bullet and drop the mast, because you're probably going to have to replace the sheeves. I'm a fan of lowering it forward, using your mainsheet for power. If you're bow-to in your slip, you can stand on land and work on the masthead. Jim is right -- use the opportunity to check out everything else on the mast while it's down.

A TR mast is much heavier than a SR mast. Ten years ago I could raise the mast on my own, but I can't do that anymore. There's a handy way in the Tech Tips (http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/tech/tech25/bsmast.asp) to keep the mast from swinging side-to side, which is the biggest problem.

Edited by - Even Chance on 04/24/2009 04:51:42

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 08:22:18

Just wanted to update and thank everyone for your help. This past weekend I was able to switch out the wire halyards with 5/16 low stretch rope. I ended up cutting the wire halyards at the sail end and taping 3/16 line on top of the wire. I overlapped them about 1 1/2 inches then wrapped them with rigging tape. In both cases (main and genoa) they went through the mast head the with only a firm tug. Once I had the 3/16 line through I then butted the 5/16 to the 3/16 and connected them with an inch long piece of heat shrink tube. I was nervous that it wouldn't go through but it went through without a hitch. Once through I cut the two lines at the connection and left the heat shrink tube on to prenvent fraying. Worked great. I was able to sail all weekend with 5/16 rope halyards and the original TR sheeves. So the 5/16 will work. This winter I will drop the mast and check the sheeves out.

I also was able to correct the halyard wrap on the roller furling by installing a 4" piece of wire rope between the clew at the bottom of the sail and the roller furling drum. This raised the sail by 4 inches. I also cut a 4 " piece of washing machine hose (perfect inner diameter) and slipped it over the halyard just above the shackle. This provided rigidity (and protection) to the halyard at the top of the roller furling and won't allow it to wrap. These two things worked well and it was great sailing! Thanks for all your help!!

Edited by - Blue Nose on 04/27/2009 08:25:20

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 13:50:21

I have a restrainer that I haven't installed yet. I shackled a block to the jib head swivel fitting and run the main halyard through the block. Very little resistance and the main tension prevents wrap. Not sure if I'll ever install the restrainer.

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