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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Spinlock Cleats instead of coaming winches

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essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/28/2009 : 20:06:11

I am considering installing these http://beneteau.sailboatowners.com/index.php?option=com_mtree& task=viewlink& link_id=6124& Itemid=222 in such a manner as to allow easy single handing under most conditions. My dad is currently installing them on his H260 (next to the cabintop winches to use in place of them on normal wind condition days) and as yet I have no experience with them.

Does anyone out there use these?

At $800 per self tailing coaming winch... does anyone see a way to use these and a few routing blocks to lead jib sheets behind the wheel to get the same advantages at only about $100 per side?

Essen Davis
Trenton, MI

"Cornbread"
1995 Catalina 250, Water Ballast , Hull #161
http://gallery.me.com/essen#gallery

Edited by - on

Dave Brown
Navigator

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USA
174 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2009 : 22:07:25

Skipper,
I've crewed on a boats (2) that's used that "kind" of system, instead of a winch. It was ok, but not the best. Some release better than others.
Some are real hard on your thumb. Try some others out before you buy, Your thumb's may thank you.
Good luck.
D.B.

____________________/)_____________/)____________/))))____________

.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2009 : 23:47:29

I had two and removed two.....
Sometimes they would work sometimes not...

paulj

Edited by - on

528
Navigator

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USA
181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2009 : 08:44:35

I have been using cam cleats under the catbird seats to control jib lines from the helm. Very happy with the control. There are many benefits to this setup. I found with spinlocks under heavy load, the line can slip. They just didn't work as I had assumed they would. My experience was the same as previous posts.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2009 : 21:39:58

What are the safe working loads for the Spinlock cleats or cam cleats as compared to a winch?

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essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2009 : 22:17:35

http://www.spinlock.co.uk/productitem.asp?pc=PXR0810/SW& l=cleats& t=PXR%20Cam%20Cleats

MAX SWL is 440 lbs

Also, It seems that they are new and improved version over the original... I wonder if some of the comments above were users of the PX series instead of the PXR?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2009 : 22:50:02

You don't need new self-tailers for the coaming - just move the existing winches. Then add a non-tailer (I use a Lewmar 7C) to the cabintop for raising the main.

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essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2009 : 22:54:40

Unfortunately, that is one of the differences between WB and WK. No self tailers on the cabintop!

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2009 : 16:38:58

If you don't have self tailing winches and want some but don't have the $$ buy Winchers. There have been gobs of discussions about these and they worked perfectly for me for 12 years.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 08:41:16

In another simple and inexpensive solution, some single-handers have added appropriately sized clam cleats on an angled small block of teak aft of the winch. Then you can wrap and belay the jib sheet with one hand in a second, just like with a tailing winch.

I need the winches to maintain mechanical advantage on the sheet and would not replace them with cleats/clutches only.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/03/2009 08:44:27

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 11:14:46

My early 95 C 250 WB has the original winches on the cabin top, several years ago I added swiveling cam cleats inboard and aft of the winches. They have worked the nuts for my application and make single-handed sailing a little easier.

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essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 14:53:54

I am still kicking this idea around. I found this elsewhere on the web:

George
05-16-2007, 11:55 pm
I've never used the winches on my H260 - not once.

I'm a big fan of spinlocks for small boats --

Check this link for more info on the spinlocks

http://kobernus.com/hunter260/spinlock/spinlock.html

Jack h23.5
05-17-2007, 12:42 am
The author believes the spinlocks are the way to go.. has anyone used both the spinlocks and cam cleats that can give a Pro/Con review of the two. I have used the Cam Cleats on all my boats and find them to work great, and the swivel ones can be used at many angles such as off the winch or directly from the jib. Opinions of the two?? Thanks, Jack

Rick Macdonald
05-17-2007, 07:54 am
I learned about the Powercleats a few years ago right here from George and Rick and others and they are the best thing I've done to my boat (followed by the furler and the stern rail seats).

I haven't used cam cleats for jib sheets, but have one for the furling line and of course the mainsheet. I'm sure the Powercleats are easier to use. I can open and close them from anywhere in the cockpit, including sitting on the stern rail seats, all with the flick of a wrist. They release easier under load because the opening force is upwards. A downward force locks it again. A cam cleat has to be pulled backwards and then up to release, and backwards and down to lock. The difference is not trivial.

The flicking wrist motion is a whipping motion, similar to what you do in a locker room with a wet towel aimed at somebody's bare butt. That gives the upward or downward forces to operate the Powercleat.

Spinlock has improved the Powercleats with a new model (PXR0810), but the bolt spacing is further apart than the holes that we have for the existing horn cleats. Too bad, because the new design seems much more robust. The new ones are for a max line diameter of 3/8"; the older Powercleats that we all have go up to 7/16".

I downsized my jib sheets from 7/16 to 3/8 in order to use a Forespar whisker pole. With the lighter sheets, I found I have to be more precise (or flick harder) with the wrist motion to operate the cleat.

...RickM...

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 16:04:52

I've read stuff by George the H260 guy before and he has done a very fine job with his boat. On the other hand I would not go without winches. Sure, sometimes they are not needed but there are times when the wind kicks in that they are. Also not sure what jib that guy has, we have a 135.

I guess you could try not using your current winches right now and see hnow it goes.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/27/2009 16:05:42

essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2009 : 19:44:55

Picture may help. When I say without a winch... I meant (and mean) to say without a winch HANDLE! Oops.

What I'm thinking is one, two, or three turns around both winches depending on wind strength and the ability to change from the stock (blue) routing when there is a willing and able crew to the new routing (red and green) when I am single handing (which I want to be able to easily do even when there are others on board without giving them rope burns on their necks

)

I ordered longer jib sheets, and plan on ordering the stanchion blocks to get the lines back there regardless of the responses on this forum... The variable is Powercleats at the end of the chain or cam cleats. I will post the results of what I do (good or bad)... but I don't want to spend good money on something that someone else tried and it didn't work.

Does anyone USE THE WINCHES and lead them from there to a second generation model Spinlock powercleat? If so, do they hold and can you set and release them fairly easily? Do they slip? If they slip in this circumstance I will order cam cleats. I won't be using this routing of the sheets on any loads that I can't pull with my two arms. I won't be leading the sheet from the clew to the spinlock... there will always be a winch in between.

Edited by - on

essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2009 : 11:31:35

I am taking everyones advice here and getting away from the spinlocks.

I think I'm going to go with a similar setup as 528 has done using cam cleats. I plan to place them in the same place as pictured above (approximately at the coaming pockets). I plan on using harken 150's with the harken xtremem angle fairleads, so that either the helmsman can singlehand or optionally a crewmember forward of the helm can operate them. In weather that requires winch tightening, the stock setup can still be used. I am probably aiming them straight in to the cockpit with a cheek block directly behind them... which may allow a crewmember to winch and cleat it.

http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD& Product_Code=HAR375& Category_Code=ODLIGHT

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2009 : 18:54:57

Hey Bear!!!
Can you send me a pic of that set-up?
Willy

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 05:04:18

OK Willy, Need to get up to boat anyway. Haven't sailed in two weeks
Lot of rain and wind up this way the last month....

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Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 19:43:34

I have 1995 #106 and replaced cam cleats with swivel cleats the first season I sailed her, It has been 15 seasons and they are still functioning well. I have wheel steering and never sit behind the wheel when single handling. It is easy to handle the boat sitting on either side. the only time I sit behind the whee is when I motor or dock.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2009 : 05:59:01

Essen... I hadn't been following this thread, but I can't imagine using the Powercleat, basically a mini rope clutch, for a jib sheet because the sheet would be captive to it. How do you quickly wrap and cast off from the winch? A cam or jam cleat allows you to lift the sheet out, do whatever with it, and then snap it back down into the cleat. Clutches are for things like halyards, vangs, etc., that are adjusted but remain in place. Always keeping lines in place is part of their purpose.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/07/2009 06:00:51

essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2009 : 08:47:05

I ended up installed the extreme angle fairleads to the cabintop stock cleats. $26 mod. I can now singlehand until the wind is really blowing from behind the wheel. If it is really blowing I can manuever her from directly in front of the wheel. It gets hard to release the cleat from too far away the more pressure there is on it.

What I did notice immediately was the problem you are talking about as those fairleads don't allow you to get the sheet out of the way unless you thread it completely out, however, aside from raising the main halyard, I have no reason to cast off from a cleat. I use the port side winch/cleat to furl the jib, so there is no pressure on the starboard one. That allows me to cast off that starboard winch and raise the main. No winch is necessary to lower the main. It actually works really well. I may never move the system aft. I'm pretty satisfied as it is.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5895 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2009 : 08:30:21

In this case, you can't compare the Hunter 260 with the Catalina 250. There's a big difference between using Spinlocks without winches on the Hunter 260 as opposed to the Catalina 250. The Hunter has a fractional rig, while the C250 has a masthead rig. Therefore, the size of the C250 jib is much larger than the size of the Hunter jib. Accordingly, the load on it will be much greater, and you'll be more likely to need the mechanical advantage of a winch to help you trim the C250 jib in strong winds. If you reduce sail size early, so that you don't load the sail as much, you might be able to do without winches, but if you like to carry as much sail as you can, in as much wind as possible, then you'll probably need the help of winches.

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essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2009 : 18:01:04

Ended up installing lewmar 7's on the coaming with cam cleats with extremet angle fairleads on risers, performs flawlessly, from everywhere in the cockpit, good deal on broken set on ebay too, they weren't broken just needed to be taken apart cleaned and re-lubed.

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