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HDPE vs Glassed Rudder Deflection

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HeelinPatrick
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102 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/23/2009 : 11:42:17

I just drilled and mounted my new HDPE rudder. I read plenty of discussion on here about whether the HDPE or glassed rudder before buying. I figured between less price and lifetime guarantee, and my old rudder breaking at the top, go with HDPE. What I didn't think to consider was how stiff the rudder is or needs to be.

My boat's still on trailer for now, and so I could play around with the rudder easily. With about 10 or 15 pounds of pull at the bottom, it deflects about 2" to port or starboard (just pulling on it with my hand). Although I didn't do it, guessing if I really pulled on it, thinking it would deflect 4" or more. This seems pretty excessive, considering it's from the rudder bending, and not slop in the pintles or anything. I tossed my old rudder, but I think it was a heck of a lot stiffer than that. This is the balanced design, but still guessing it will deflect pretty good under way, but maybe not,

Anyone have any knowledge to share on this one?? Bit of a moot , as I don't plan on buying the other rudder anytime soon, unless the HDPE gives a lot of problems.

Thanks

Pat

Patrick Moran
1981 SR/SK w/trailer
#2303 - "Chili Mas"
Lincoln, NE

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 03/23/2009 : 13:00:31

Haven't heard about rudder flexibility as a positive characteristic, but I just got through finishing and installing a new foam-cored, fiberglass & gelcoat covered, balanced rudder from CD. It was very stiff, and I think it might bend essentially not at all (maybe 1/16") when pushed with 10 lbs of force. With 100 lbs of force, with the boat heeled over beating to windward at 6 knots in a gale, I would suspect it would bend a bit.

Edited by - JohnP on 03/23/2009 13:01:16

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/23/2009 : 14:31:03

Sounds like a good thing if it does not snap. Look at the angle of the dual rudders on supertech boats.

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HeelinPatrick
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102 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2009 : 14:53:33

I just got off the phone with a guy at Idasailor, who makes the HDPE rudders thru Catalina Direct. Some interesting info.

He assured me that even though it does deflect, that it works quite well. Also said me pulling on it is a point load at the end of the rudder which isn't what happens under way, since the load is over the whole wetted part of the rudder. I asked how much force the rudder sees, and he said about 200 lbs when pointing, assuming tuned sails (aka not too much weather helm).

He mentioned they've sold about 250 C-25 rudders. They also make the blue water rudder, which is wider and longer, to give more bite in the water (say for SF Bay). He said the regular HDPE is preferred for smoother water (more waves and such, more rudder you need). The HDPE certainly is thinner, and probably produces much less drag, which he pointed out. Being on lake in the Midwest, Don't ever see 3' rollers.

In hind sight, I would have gone with the glassed one, however, might change my mind when I give it a test drive. Also, the HDPE is 9" longer than glassed I believe. Somewhat defeats the purpose of the swing keel.

That's what I got.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/23/2009 : 22:15:29

There is no question that a solid HDPE rudder is more flexible than a cored fiberglass and probably even a solid fiberglass rudder. It could be significant to racers, but probably not to the rest of use. There are reports of HDPE rudders breaking, but very few and under high loads. I doubt that you will ever have a problem with it.

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dlucier
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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2009 : 08:17:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HeelinPatrick
 "I figured between less price and lifetime guarantee,..."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless shipping costs come into play, Catalina Direct lists the standard balanced rudder for $604 and the HDPE for $649 (IdaSailor $689).

As to the lifetime guarantee, it's only to the original owner. Once the boat, or rudder, changes hands, all bets are off.

Edited by - dlucier on 03/24/2009 08:19:33

JohnP
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Response Posted - 03/24/2009 : 15:34:06

My previous standard rudder of 1978 vintage lasted 30 years. I'll be happy if the new balanced one performs as reliably, and I bet your new HDPE rudder will serve you well.

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islander
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4018 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2009 : 17:35:01

After reading this thread, I took a look at the rudders from CD and Ida sailor. I noticed that their rudders appear to be different from mine. Their's have a small kick out up where the tiller mounts then another kick out below the lower pintle then straight down to the tip. My rudder has a third kick out below the one under the lower pintle. This third kick out puts the forward edge of the rudder under the keel. Is this the standard rudder? Is this what the rest of you have? The boat is a 1987. Im a little confused.

Edited by - islander on 03/24/2009 18:06:45

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/24/2009 : 18:26:00

balanced
standard looks like this

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HeelinPatrick
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Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 08:52:34

Thanks for feedback all. If anyone is interested, the HPDE rudder weighs 37 lbs (according to the shipping weight), don't know what the glassed one weighs. I know my glass one floated, but then it was bloated from swelling. I'm curious to see if the HDPE floats, but according to a website, HDPE density is 59 lbs/ft3, and water is 62 lbs/ft3, so should float.

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islander
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Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 15:20:28

Please keep us informed as to how the HDPE rudder works out/preforms, I'm very curious. I'm very happy to find out that the rudder that came on my boat is a balanced one. The PO never said a word about it. Would anybody know if the balanced rudder came standard on the 1987 model or would this have to had been added at a later date. I'm trying to get an idea of its age.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 16:10:19

I think that is about when they became standard... anyone have any better info?

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Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 17:01:04

Here's the balanced standard rudder from the C25 Technical Tips page. Looks just like yours.

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islander
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Response Posted - 03/25/2009 : 17:20:57

Wow! Thanks Frank and Joe, It's nice to know what I have and thanks for putting up with us newbies. I'm sure you guy's see the same old questions come up all the time. Thanks again.

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HeelinPatrick
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102 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2009 : 08:39:22

I'll go ahead and follow up after having the boat out with the idasailor HDPE rudder.

Sure enough it works great. It doesn't have the forward area that the CD rudder does, the leading edge is just straight down from the pivot point. But, no pressure on the tiller, and in fact, its now apparent the play in the grundeons (sp?), since there's no constant pressure on them. I looked down to try to see if the rudder bends underway, but no way to see. I still don't know if I'm a fan of it being flexible, but as long as it doesn't break, I'm happy.

Of course one thing to remember, is its considerable longer than the bottom of the swing keel when its retracted, and need to keep a closer eye on it when on the trailer and not dragging it.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/29/2009 : 08:46:39

Patrick,

What were the conditions like when you tried out your new rudder? Any improvements in pointing ability?

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HeelinPatrick
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Response Posted - 04/29/2009 : 13:55:23

Just on local lake, 15+ knots, reefed main and 110, just out taking it easy with the Admiral. The old rudder broke at the end of last season, so its been 6 months, and can't say about pointing. It could have improved, don't think it got worse. Hope to get an idea in the next few weeks, as there are two other C25's on lake, one has unbalanced orig rudder.

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