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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Tohatsu or Nissan

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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/05/2009 : 10:25:38

It's time to let my Sailmaster go and am considering using my member discount at On Line Out Boards to by a 9.8hp 25" shaft motor.
There is a boat unit difference in price between the two motors, is there a reason to opt for one over the other? That boat unit could buy an 11 watt solar panel.
BTW-Do you say engine or motor?

John Gisondi
Peregrine #4762

*

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 11:25:22

JOHN, HI.

THEY ARE THE SAME MOTORS WITH DIFFERENT PAINT AND DECALS. IT IS IMPORTANT TO GET THE LONGEST SHAFT MOTOR. I HAVE HAD THE 2005 NISSAN WITH MOSTLY POSITIVE THINGS TO SAY ABOUT IT. MY ONE COMPLAINT HAS TO DO WITH THE TILT MECHANISM. NOT AS FINE AS THE OLD SAILMASTER, BUT THAT'S MORE THAN LIKLY MY AGE SPEAKING.

VAL ON THE HARD DAGNABIT, #3936, PATCHOGUE, N.Y.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 11:28:29

I have the Tohatsu 9.8 XXL shaft with electric start bought from online outboards with our member discount. This motor has run for hundreds of hours and carried me to the Channel Islands, Catalina, Mexico, and on several long ocean race deliveries over the past 2 years. It has never failed to start in the first 5 seconds. It has run for 15 hours at 5 knots without faltering. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours motoring on this and it still looks and runs like new. It is very quiet and I get about 15 nmpg. It has never once pulled the prop out of the water due to a wave and that is on the high motor mount setting. With the charger, I can basically forget shore power.

I run this motor 200 days per year.

I can not say ANY of the above about my old Honda 8.

There is simply no reason to go with any other motor. Especially considering the price.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 11:48:01

We have the Tohatsu, and agree with the above comments. Definitely the Sailmaster's had a better tilt mechanism, but there are mods you can make to the Tohatsu to make it more agreeable, search on AADIVER posts for his bungee & toggle mod. There's no reason to purchase the Nissan unless you really like the brand and want to pay extra for the stickers.

I have nowhere near as many hours on our engine yet as Jim does, but it does start right up. Over the winter I try to alternate between electric & manual start when I go down to work on the boat & exercise the engine a bit & get a float on my battery.

<high horse>An engine is something that drives itself from some internal force, combustion usually, a Stirling engine is an example of an external combustion engine. An outboard is a fine example of an internal combustion engine. A motor on the other hand is something that's driven externally by power it doesn't provide itself, most commonly electric, hydraulic, or pneumatic. Examples of motors are electric bilge pumps, electric cars. This was driven into me during my electrician's training in the USN and you actually got tested on it in EM "A" school. I grit my teeth everytime I see an engine referred to as a motor & vice versa, but I (generally) keep my mouth shut. Nearly everyone refers to an outboard as a motor, but it's really an engine.</high horse>

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 13:19:46

You could say that an outboard motor has a gasoline engine in it, so the motor (in particular, the prop) is driven by the engine.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 13:34:20

I bought the 9.8 hp Nissan 25" elec start from Online Outboards due to a notion that the local shops would work on a Nissan, but perhaps not a Tohatsu, and maybe because Nissan has a car assembly plant about 30 miles from here so the name is much better known. Probably misguided notions on my part. Save the boat unit. However, do ask if the tilt lock mechanism is the same on both "engines".

On my Nissan, when I shift into reverse, I have to reach back and push down on a metal bow behind the shaft to securely lock it so it won't tilt up when I increase the throttle. Maybe my locking device just needs to be adjusted.
Online Outboards is here in Tennessee, and they will treat you right. My engine was shipped in a sturdy cardboard box via UPS to my office address, and the driver and I just slid it from his truck into my van.
It should arrive with gear lube in the lower unit but no oil in the crankcase. In case you don't receive a bottle of oil along with the engine, be careful and do not overfill the crankcase. It only holds 800 ml. Pour about 2/3 - 3/4 qt and check the dipstick. Good luck!
P.S. Tilt lock aside, I thoroughly enjoy the engine, it's a great product.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/05/2009 13:38:26

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 14:14:57

The Tohatsu, Nissan and some Mercury engines are the same with some small feature differences. I bought my 25 inch shaft Tohatsu with the member discount from Online Outboards -- a very good experience -- and it has operated flawlesly. As with any outboard the thrust in reverse can be an issue -- but if you learn how to handle it there really is no problem. I have my Tohatsu serviced at an Evinrude/Honda dealer, who has told me that if/when I need a "serious" repair he will tell me and I should have it done at a Mercury dealer so to save on the cost for parts. Overall, I am very happy with the engine. Also, I had flirted with getting a 20 inch and boy, am I glad I did not. The 25" is THE way to go.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 14:17:39

David,
I had a similar problem with my Tohatsu, I adjusted my linkage so that when putting it into reverse, it had enough throw to engage the reverse lock completely. I have remote linkage, but I'd think the procedure would be nearly identical for the shifter knob on the side.

I have to back all the way down my fairway to get out, so not having it pop up is a good thing.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/05/2009 14:18:53

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 10:17:06

David,

Thanks for the info regarding appropriate use of the motor/engine terminology. I trust the USN's input.

The first outboard that I purchased (new) was an Evinrude 15 hp, 1947 model year. Evinrude advertised it as a motor. Every outboard that I have ever purchased since, including the 2005 Nissan was and is still advertised as a motor. Check the online-outboard advertisement. When I next get an outboard I'll mention the USNavy's insistence that it is an engine.

What are the chances that they'll rewrite their ads

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 10:45:22

About the same as the USN changing their rerminology.

Regarding the reverse lock mentioned earlier, apparently my linkage still needs a bit of tweaking. When motoring (hah) into our slip yesterday, I tried to bleed some speed with a quick burst in reverse, and the engine kicked up enough to go into "shallow water" mode with the prop just barely in the water, virtually useless in reverse. Since we were about 30 seconds from making our turn, I had no time to reset the engine and had to make due with what I had. We ended up a bit wide, bumped the pier on our port side & scuffed the gel coat a bit. Fortunately I was able to fend us off from the boat downstream, and Rita stayed on purpose snagging a cleat on the pier the first time with the Nauti-Dock-O-Matic, a quick burst ahead & we snubbed up nicely against the dock.

I've got AADIVER's bungee mod on my tilt lock mechanism, but I didn't see a great need for the release toggle he also rigged to the underside of his starboard catbird seat. Now I do, if I could have simply pulled the toggle to release the lever dropping the engine back down, I'd have had full engine control back. So, a few lessons learned, bleed speed earlier, don't hit reverse so hard, and get the tilt-lock release toggle rigged, and I need to look at my reverse lock linkage & adjust it so this doesn't happen again.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/08/2009 10:47:37

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 11:45:10

Even with the reverse lock issue the Tohatsu seems like the right deal.
Thank you.

Now...

Motor* mounts.
I have the original mount and am considerig the one from Catalina Direct.
I am guessing the original is too light weight the motor.
Could you"weigh"

in with suggestins and how new ones line up with the excisting holes. Also did you use "starboard" or other backings?
Many thanks.

*Motor...
It does seem that outboards are motors. But is based more on usage than a technical descripition.
Here is an [url="http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/engine.htm"]article in World Wide Words.[/url]
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In everyday, non-technical usage the words have much the same meaning. But they have such clearly defined and fixed compounds (except in the rocket case) that they can’t be thought of as entirely interchangeable. The magazine article argues that the difference is that engines contain their own fuel or are part of a highly integrated engine-fuel system, whereas a motor draws on externally supplied energy. That’s the rule given in the Oxford English Dictionary, but on reflection it seems not wholly satisfactory. It doesn’t work for outboard motor or rocket motor for example<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Though there seems to be no clear evidence for the choice, perhaps outboard motor was so termed because it was a compact device that reminded its namers of electric motors.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Isn't English wonderful?

Edited by - on

Crunkinator
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 11:46:25

I looked at OnlineOutboards web site and they list a 9.8 Tohatsu 25" electric start motor? engine? engotor? motgine? for $1920. Is that with or w/o the discount? And if it's without, how much is the discount for this uhhh... power plant?
Bill Crunk
Capri25 #367
Bayou Mist-Dallas

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 12:24:06

In my experience, the price shown for the outboard is before the fleet discount. If my memory is correct the discount was $50.00.

Re motor mounts: DO NOT put a Fulton mount, model MB1810 or MB1820, on a C-25. I did, trying to save money, and it was a mistake. The mount is plenty strong, built like a fortress, and I was able to line up 2 of the 4 holes, but the handle arms are straight and cause the handle to hit the rub rail so it won't lock in the up position, and the throw is too short for a 20" shaft motor. (It does handle the 25" 9.8 Nissan easily, with the limitations noted.)Spend the extra bucks and buy the motor mount from CD, or directly from Garhauer. If you have the single spring Garhauer mount with tubular frame, the holes may line up okay. In fact, you may be able to send it to Garhauer to have more springs installed. If you have the old mount with the 2 arms very close together, it will not handle the extra weight of a 9.8 four stroke, and the holes will not line up.
And yes, I did use Starboard on both sides, 1/2" outside and 1/4" inside for extra bracing. In another thread, after looking at the pics I posted, one member suggested that I should have rounded off the corners after cutting the pieces to reduce the risk of stress cracks. So be sure to do that. Here are my pics:

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/08/2009 12:27:47

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 13:30:52

John,
Here's how I installed my [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17458&SearchTerms=engine,mount"]Garelick mount[/url]. I don't know why all the pictures have turned into thumbnails, so it's difficult to see what's going on.

I used a piece of UHMW cutting board on the outside, and 2" x 1/4" aluminum straps on the inside to spread the load.

I spent a fair amount of time with AutoCAD figuring out where the best mount point was so it would extend & retract properly as well as tilt. I calculated the best placement so the propeller would still be in the water even if it was all the way up (I couldn't mount it high enough to get it completely out of the water while in the down position). I wanted the cavitation plate just covered so it would still draw in cooling water. I think I missed by about 1/2" or so, but it worked out OK.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/08/2009 13:32:41

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 14:01:28

David, as images "age" on Shutterfly they seem to shrink!

The same thing has happened to many of my older posted photos. Some day it would be great if we could post the photos right here on the Association forum.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 15:26:49

If my memory is correct, since I could use only 2 of the existing 4 holes, I used the 2 holes closest to the rudder and filled in the other 2 with silicone caulk. Then the backing plates covered them up. My biggest concern was keeping the holes where I could get to them inside the boat. That limited placing the mount low enough for the 20" shaft o/b to work. Also, I did the motor mount change-out while the boat was in the water.
Not the most ideal situation, but it is doable.

The 2 main things about selecting a motor mount for the C-25 are these: How long is the throw (distance of movement from top position to lowest position) and, in the top most position, does the handle stay behind the vertical shear of the mounting brackets (i.e. will the handle stay aft of the transom and rubrail? You want a throw of at least 13"-15" and you need to be able to answer yes to the second point.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/08/2009 15:38:21

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 16:42:43

I did the installation with the Forum input and am very pleased. Yes it's a Honda and it has been great. Used some of the original holes but plugged and sealed the unused holes. Have also the power tilt, inboard controls and now the tiller is connected to the Honda for the tight docking with current in the NW. Have to work on the deflector plate which keeps the water from climbing up to the engine.

Edited by - on

Jefffriday
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 12:45:22

I can't seem to find the AADiver's bungee mod. Anyone got a link?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 13:12:11

Search for "Sunburn Sunday" in the forums. For some reason here at work when I get the properties of a page it just goes back to the main page of the forum, not sure what's different, and don't have time to figure it out.

Once you find Sunburn Sunday post, scroll down a bit to find Frank's (AADIVER) bungee mod.

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