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Sailing upwind

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Crunkinator
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/04/2009 : 21:38:54

I would like to know if there is a "rule of thumb" for choosing the best heading to sail upwind. The more I point into the wind the more direct my path but the slower my speed. As I point away from wind my speed increases but I'm sailing a longer path. What is the ideal angle to reach my upwind destination in the least time?

Bill - Bayou Mist
Capri 25 #367
Dallas Tx

crunkinator
83 Capri 25 Bayou Mist #367

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 21:42:42

With a waypoint in a GPS, you can see what heading gives you the highest Velocity Made Good (VMG)--the rate at which you're getting closer to your destination.

You'll find that the answer varies by wind strength and sea state. And pointing too high can induce more leeway that means you're not actually moving as high as your bow appears to be pointed.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/04/2009 21:44:48

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 22:09:34

Sail trim, sail shape, and the age of the sails also affect how high you can point. Hull shape and rudder configuration are also factors. No two boats are exactly identical.

sten

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josh-hansen
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 01:17:25

Sailing close-hauled (as close to the wind as possible) is my favorite point of sail by far. With the right sail trim you'll get there faster, as it's a straighter course with fewer tacks. Let's put it this way; I have never seen anyone in a race not run close-hauled when heading to a windward mark.

As mentioned, sail trim is key. Assuming you have 10+ knots of wind, tighten up everything to flatten out the headsail and main. I pull my genoa in so it is only 6-8" from the spreader boot, traveller all the way to windward with the mainsheet tight, this usually gets all my telltales streaming back.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 07:36:25

The rule of thumb for the best heading to sail upwind is about 45 deg., but there are many variables that affect that rule of thumb.

A sailboat's ability to sail efficiently to windward depends on two factors: speed and pointing ability.

There is one overarching principle that you should think about. On a sailboat, speed begets speed. The faster a sailboat goes to windward, the faster it is capable of going. As a sailboat moves to windward through the water, the speed of the "apparent wind" through which it is sailing increases, so that the boat acts as if it is sailing in a stronger, more powerful wind.

Likewise, if the boat is well-prepared, it will be capable of achieving higher speeds. If the bottom and keel of the boat are clean and fair, the boat will have less drag, and it'll be capable of reaching and maintaining higher speeds. If the sails are perfectly trimmed, the sails will generate more power, and use that power more efficiently, and the boat will be capable of reaching and maintaining higher speeds. New, well-made sails are more efficient than old, baggy sails. A well-tuned rig will be faster than a sloppy rig.

Speed also begets pointing ability. As the speed of a sailboat increases, it's ability to sail close to the wind also increases. The faster you go, the closer you can sail to the wind.

Finally, there's the matter of helmsmanship. It is well-said that you should "foot to point." In other words, steer the boat slightly away from the wind in order to point as high as possible. That sounds contradictory, but, if you try to steer too close to the wind (pinch), the boat will slow down, and it won't sail as fast or as close to the wind. The key to good helmsmanship is to steer away from the wind just enough to maximize the boat's speed, and no more. As the boat's speed increases, it's ability to point will increase. When you find that optimal course and speed, maintain it for as long as you can.

Therefore, you should focus on preparing the underwatersurfaces and rig of the boat so that it will be capable of achieving it's maximum designed speed, trim the sails as nearly perfect as possible for the conditions of wind and sea in which you're sailing, and steer the boat just as far off the wind as necessary in order to achieve the highest speed and pointing ability.

There are other factors that you need to consider, of course, but these are the big ones that apply generally in all conditions.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 08:28:17

You have tell-tales right? (I hope you do) I have found that the key to sailing upwind in to find the slot and have your bow crew call out trim. The can hold you in the slot when you can't see all the tell-tales, also, they will be able to see the sailshape better than you if the jib is hidden behind the main.

On Iris I am VERY fortunate to have 2 competent crew. On race day one takes foredeck and the other takes the sheets while I drive. The foredeck crew (when there isn't other work to be done) will call port or starboard to have me head up or head down, and ease or haul to have the jib trimmer tension the sheets properly. I will adjust mainsail tension and sheeting on my own since I'm already at the back of the boat.

For us the key to making good time upwind is:
1. Good Communication
2. Heading for a given point, and making sure we all are heading to the same point.
3. Tacking on a wind shift whenever possible
4. Leaving egos behind and accepting each oter's input (We don't sail by committee, but its something close.)
5. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS finding the slot/groove and sailing in it, whatever our point of sail.
6. Ignoring the competition.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 09:18:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 For us the key to making good time upwind is:
...
2. Heading for a given point, and making sure we all are heading to the same point.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">However, in varying winds (gusts and lulls), don't fixate on sailing a straight line--steer a course (and trim accordingly) to "lift" you toward the destination in higher winds, and keep your boat-speed up in lower winds. Watch the water--you can see the changes coming.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 09:35:31

re GPS & VMG:
Be careful using a GPS to determine your VMG. That will either work ONLY when the boat is dead downwind of the selected waypoint, or the waypoint is very far away - yet still basically directly to windward. And a soon as the wind changes (either speed or direction), that's out the window. It can be a quick & dirty way to figure it out, but not ideal. CAVEAT: If the waypoint you're using happens to be the next mark, then by all means maximize THAT VMG - just remember that AWA will likely not be repeatable next tack/leg/race and you'll need to continue referencing the GPS VMG.

The best way I've found to calculate max VMG is in any given (reasonably steady) wind speed, sail a steady course, note your speed. Sail that course +/- a degree or so, note your speed. Repeat thru your pinching and footing courses as necessary. Go home and do a little math to determine which sail angle gives max VMG at that windspeed. You either need to know a little trig, or cheat and go here:
http://www.easycalculation.com/trigonometry/triangle-angles.php

Repeat the above for different wind velocities, then do your darndest to apply that on the course. Best of luck with that!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">6. Ignoring the competition.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You DO need to sail your own boat, but I have to disagree here.

ALWAYS know where your competion is and where they're going (and where you think they're TRYING to go, and preferably WHY). Ex: Sometimes you want to take the wrong side of the course because your primary competion went there and your going to cover them. The tactical rule of "stay between the mark and your competition". You may not be sailing the fastest course, but they wont catch a fluke shift and beat you either.

My $0.02
Jim

Edit: typos, the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet...

Edited by - SailCO26 on 02/05/2009 09:36:58

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 10:25:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 [quote]However, in varying winds (gusts and lulls), don't fixate on sailing a straight line--steer a course (and trim accordingly) to "lift" you toward the destination in higher winds, and keep your boat-speed up in lower winds. Watch the water--you can see the changes coming.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think this is where situational stuff comes in to play. Is it better to trim for the puffs or adjust course? How wide and strong ar the oscillations? I think the communication on board between skipper, trimmer and foredeck (in our case) comes to play here. Foredeck watches the wind, and will call for more/less helm to steer for it, or for more/less trim to compensate.

At our club there is a prominent point, and behind that point the wind curls in various strange directions. There is always a lot of debate of what the wind will do behind th epoint, and whether to tack early to stay in the clean air, or if the wind angle is enough that we can sneak in behind to fetch th emark. The mark is always set in the lee of that point, and causes much consternation. Part of the fun of racing in our club. Even though we may be steering for "the white house with the Green roof" we can switch to aim for the "Cell tower with the cloud behind it" if the wind dictates it, and foredeck feels that we cna make better time headed that way. I think most boats call that position "navigator" or "Tactician" but on Iris it falls under the general duties of Foredeck.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 10:33:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">6. Ignoring the competition.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You DO need to sail your own boat, but I have to disagree here.

ALWAYS know where your competion is and where they're going (and where you think they're TRYING to go, and preferably WHY). Ex: Sometimes you want to take the wrong side of the course because your primary competion went there and your going to cover them. The tactical rule of "stay between the mark and your competition". You may not be sailing the fastest course, but they wont catch a fluke shift and beat you either.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed Jim. I guess I assumed that folks understood that in sailing the most concrete rules are more putty than concrete. In club racing on our lake there are a few boats that employ... "interesting" tactics. The best so far is video. If "Tobasco is sailing alongside they will yell and wave and point their video camera at you. I fell for this once or twice. You wind up spending so much time worrying that your trim and seamanship are right for the camera that you don't notice you've sailed 5 degrees off course and are straying away from the fleet, or the mark or what have you.

Similarly, if Newfie asks why your *insert line here* is so tight/slack/on the port side/whatever, you have to really study it before making a change.

On the other hand if he is moving faster than me, I will take a long study of his boat to study where his lines are and try to recreate it.

Many times though, I have second-guessed my course or tactics based on what other boats are doing and regretted it. Many times I have continued on my way without making any changes and been successful. Even if I'm not successful, I at least feel like master of my own ship, and to me that is worth something too.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 10:35:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by SailCO26
 re GPS & VMG:
Be careful using a GPS to determine your VMG. That will either work ONLY when the boat is dead downwind of the selected waypoint, or the waypoint is very far away - yet still basically directly to windward. And a soon as the wind changes (either speed or direction), that's out the window. It can be a quick & dirty way to figure it out, but not ideal...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Jim, I looked at his profile, and he says he doesn't race... (But of course "whenever there are two sailboats...") I think he was looking for something "quick and dirty" to find what Prospector calls "the slot"--recognizing that pinching was costing him speed but footing off was costing him direction. I don't get why VMG won't help him find that slot--whether the waypoint is dead-upwind, or not. If not, you just adjust to find the maximum on each tack--it might be a little different on each tack. But I do agree that the result is transient--conditions and the direction of the distination will always require a different course to maximize VMG. But trying it a few times should give him a feel for what works best with his boat.

Another variable, particularly when the wind is up, is sails... If they are a little baggy, you're better off sailing a little lower. Racers with new, flat sails will point as high they can and maintain good speed--cruisers with 5-10-year-old sails do best by giving a few degrees and easing the sheets just a little until the telltales show the sails are working efficiently.

The good news, Bill, is that your Capri will outrun our Catalinas to windward regardless of any of these variables! Enjoy!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/05/2009 10:37:08

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 10:58:10

Chris, if you watch the plots for an Americas Cup race and listen to the audio on-board, you'll see/hear the driver, tactician, and trimmers (and sometimes the guy up the mast) working together to lift toward the mark and fall off as the "pressure" changes. Each tack is like a snake-trail. I believe that reflects something that some sailors don't use to advantage: the fact that boat-speed is as important as course, and footing off in lulls can help VMG. That in turn means pointing up in puffs. And if pointing in a lull slows the boat enough to increase leeway (which it can), then you're not sailing as high as you think--and you're sailing slower.

Just changing trim doesn't do it if easing the sails while pointing causes them to luff. The course has to change, too. One steady course is not a winner except in an exceptionally steady breeze.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 11:10:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Jim, I looked at his profile, and he says he doesn't race... (But of course "whenever there are two sailboats...")<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Dave - true, he may not be "racing", however his question was:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What is the ideal angle to reach my upwind destination in the least time?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">which is exactly what every racer is doing - maximizing net "speed" in the windward direction. :)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think he was looking for something "quick and dirty" to find what Prospector calls "the slot"--recognizing that pinching was costing him speed but footing off was costing him direction. I don't get why VMG won't help him find that slot--whether the waypoint is dead-upwind, or not.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think we're talking "the groove" here, but my point is that using a GPS will give VMG toward a POINT, and doesnt know squat about the wind (or the CURRENT, for that matter, but that's a whole other Oprah - and probably not an issue in Dallas).

VMG is really all about that tradeoff between shorter distance (pinching) and better speed (footing). Wind and wave conditions will dictate a ton, but it's always nice to have a base to start with. A GPS can't calculate VMG unless it has a waypoint (which is why it works if that point is the next mark, or if not racing then your "destination"). And in this case, it's a POINT. A boat sailing close hauled cares about a LINE that corresponds with where the boat is and where the wind is coming from, and moves with the boat - the GPS waypoint does not. In a steady state wind (no shifts), the POINT a GPS uses will not always be in line with the wind angle. If all you care about is your current destination, then go the GPS route.

If you're trying to determine your boat's optimum VMG for a given wind speed, it's take a tad more effort - BUT, it's repeatable every time the wind is at that speed, w/o resorting to watching/using a GPS (and finding or pre-programming your waypoints).

J

Edited by - on

Crunkinator
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 19:57:15

This is all great and informative information to me. Dave was correct about my goals. I don't race at all. (except for one poor boat, but that was accidental and embarrassing) As far as an experienced crew to call out sail conditions or other items of interest... I sail with either myself, my wife or my younger sister. My wife has reached the point where she knows that the front of the boat is the end without a motor. My sister does a lot better, however, about two weeks she wanted to steer so I let her while I tried to put up a spinnaker for the first time. She let the boat drift off coarse and me, the spinnaker and pole ended up in 47 degree water.
If I'm on the lake and decide to go to the dam or wherever, my goal is to have a better idea as to how to get there the quickest. Do I point as much as possible into the wind and creep along all day at one knot or stay 90 degrees to the wind and fly along at 6 to 7 knots without getting any closer to my destination. The best in between is what Im searching for. Using my gps to track my windward progress sounds great after I figure out how to do it. It shows my knots but I have never thought about using it to check VMG (whatever that is). It may take a bit but I also like the idea of charting the various speeds and angles. Thanks SailCO26. Thoughts of trig problems, spreadsheets and a possible C# program is already rattling around in my head.
And tell-tales? Yes, I have them. I bought my jib used in January and thought the green and red streamers were left over Christmas decorations (kidding). I know their purpose, but not how to read them.

Thanks to all for the various opinions.
Bill - Bayou Mist
Capri 25 #367 Dallas

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 21:20:24

VMG = Velocity Made Good

I'm probably going to say this wrong: (Assuming no current) - if you're heading directly at your waypoint and you're going 6 knots then your VMG is 6 knots. If you change your course at all your VMG will start to decrease. The greater the angle away from a direct line to your waypoint the lower your VMG. At 90 degrees your VMG will be zero. If the angle is greater than 90 degrees your VMG will go negative since you will be sailing away from your waypoint.

This is in the ideal world. Current, waves, etc.. will all have an effect on VMG.

Others will correct my errors!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 21:57:50

Gary concisely says it correct.

Two other terms important to this discussion are heading and track. The boat compass (heading) and gps track (course) will usually be different numbers when going to weather as Dave points out due to inevitable leeway.

As others have pointed out, there are some designs that don't suffer leeway very bad or at all. Those boats might produces similar course and track numbers when working to weather. The one that I'm familiar with is the Hobie 16 Cat. It uses asymmetrical hulls so when it heels the immersed hull produces a strong lift to weather countering leeway.

Unfortunately the Catalina 250 suffers significant leeway that is made worse by excessive heeling because unfortunately the foil made by its hull while heeled produces lift to leeward that is added to the normal leeway forces of wave action and wind forces.

I once read a suggestion to program waypoints at various points of the compass many miles distant from ones lake. Pick the one most directly upwind on the test day and play with things a bit to obtain the best VMG. Produce all canvass and heel it over to 20-25 degrees and then compare to a reefed rig with heeling kept to 5 deg. One might be surprised to see boat speed less but VMG better.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 22:14:47

Attaining the maximum VMG will get you to target the fastest right? How can it be otherwise? No matter what the current, wind angles etc, the whole idea is to try different things until your max VMG is reached. Its just simply how fast to target you are attaining. How the heck could you have a consistent higher VMG than boat B and arrive to target after boat B?

Unless there is an inherit bug with the way a GPS reports VMG?

Sorry I'm not making statements here, just trying to understand how it can be otherwise.

Hey good thread by the way. Man I can't wait to put my boat in the water, I'm starting to itch.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/06/2009 22:16:41

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 22:47:54

Jim, et al... I don't think we have an argument here. My suggestion about the GPS was intended to mean that, by using it in real-time while varying course and trim, one can get a feel for the kind of course and trim under particular wind conditions that will get you to the destination most quickly. Conditions will change... destinations will not be directly to windward... but understanding and watching VMG while varying things will answer the essential question, and will educate the sailor on how to trade speed for direction in various circumstances, where leeway and other very subtle factors all weigh in. The GPS knows how you're really doing. Sorry, but I can't think of a more direct and specific answer to his question.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 10:17:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I don't think we have an argument here...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not at all! I'm just trying to clarify that there's a difference between GPS "VMG" and sailing VMG. Sometimes they happen to coincide, but not always.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The GPS knows how you're really doing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, relative to the "ground". It knows what you're speed and course are (or rather were), but it doesnt know WHAT you're doing. You want to maximize VMG, use the engine - it wont know.

Sailing VMG has the same definition, but is computed slightly differently - it's relative to the wind angle, not a point. What you really need is the C25/C250/CP25 output from a VPP (Velocity Predition Program) - a polar diagram. Here's a couple of samples:
J/22: http://www.j22kv.de/download/Polar_J27_J22.pdf
J/24: http://www.subatomicproductions.ca/skipsblog/polar/j24_POLAR.pdf

Now to REALLY make things interesting, when you start using polars to determine your VMG you really target speed, not angle.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 12:47:42

This is all very good information but I'll wager your having trouble putting it all together. Your best bet is to get a good book on sail trim, read it thorougly, and apply the principles. North sails has a very good one which you can get with a CD showing everything it talks about.

Once you understand the basics, everything said here will make much more sense to you.

In the mean time try this. Sail a reach, gradually tacking toward your destination. Trim jib and main as they begin to luff. Your speed will gradually decrease the closer to the wind you sail. Eventually you will not be able to trim the luff out of your sails and you'll be going slow - as you already know. Back down a few degrees, again gradually trimming your sails outward until you've reached a point of sail and speed which is a "happy medium". Your telltails should be streaming aft or with a slight "pop" upward. You'll know it when you see it/feel it. When you have to tack on the opposite course, your heading will be the reciprocal of your previous heading (+/- 180 degrees). You should not have to trim your main. When you've reached the prescribed heading, trim your jib so that the telltails are again streaming aft.

My wing keel is not a good upwind boat and I successfully use a variation of this method when racing, especially single-handed racing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 13:04:33

Polar charts certainly help you understand the characteristics of your boat--how can you get maximum speed upwind and downwind, and where the optimal angles are up and down--in still water with destinations dead upwind or downwind. If you're in still water, and if your destination is within the cone defined by the ideal angles, then those are the angles to use.

The GPS gives you VMG based on over-the-ground inputs. It doesn't know where the wind is relative to your destination, or what current you're in--it just knows what's actually happening to your boat relative to where you're trying to go. If you adjust course (and appropriately adjust trim) and watch how that affects VMG, you'll home in on a close-to-ideal course for the present tack in the present wind and water conditions.

If you can find polars for any boat similar to yours, they'll tell you a lot. But that's just part of the puzzle.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 13:38:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Polar charts certainly help you understand the characteristics of your boat--how can you get maximum speed upwind and downwind, and where the optimal angles are up and down--in still water with destinations dead upwind or downwind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes! (assuming "maximum speed" means max VMG)
Thus the answer to the OP question of "choosing the best heading to sail upwind". The closer you get to your "destination" the more GPS VMG will win over sail VMG.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The GPS gives you VMG based on over-the-ground inputs. It doesn't know where the wind is relative to your destination, or what current you're in--it just knows what's actually happening to your boat relative to where you're trying to go.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Zactly! Tho it really knows what just happen-ed, not what's happen-ing.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...home in on a close-to-ideal course for the present tack in the present wind and water conditions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">(emphasis mine) and add in "to a fixed point".

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 14:26:33

1. Get a sail trim guide and read up on sail trim and basic sailing issues.

2. When racing, or even going to any given point, there will be TWO VMGs: port tack and starboard tack, because unless your next waypoint is DEAD upwind, the wind will always be off to side so that there will be a favored tack, which will be the one with the best VMG when sailing close hauled. Think about it...

Lots of good input here from the previous respondents.

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